Hey Don
Very nice. It's like being there. Love the dissection of the techniques as well.

It is cool to hear that P-Mac and co. were working with Young.

Slice - one thing that stuck in my craw was the PA announcer using the system to drown out the Spanish fans. I'll all for partisan hoo-hah, but to me that's dirty pool and I would ask the USTA to recognize and ban that in the future. It's kind of creepy, and I don't mean for this to sound like I'm all outraged or anything. . .it's just bad policy that has an unpleasant Orwellian ring.

ptenisnet,

Thanks. Yes, despite my concern that Young, Donald doesn't have the goods, I give P-Mac and coaches (and Blake worked with him, too) credit for doing they're best to bring along the next generation of DC players. I mean, after Roddick and Blake hang up the racquets, we aren't exactly setting the world afire! The god news is that doubles teams tend to last much longer, so hopefully we'll be able to rely on the twin towers for years to come.

Pete,
Dirty pool was the exact expression that came to my mind when I read that too.

Pete, you make an excellent ppoint. And despite not mentioning it in my piece, I almost did, as I had the same feeling. It was a bit disrespectful, and of course, the U.S. team had nothing to do with it. It was some Coliseum audio technician behind a closed door making that decision. But I agree wholeheartedly: it should not be tolerated. Can you get the word to P-Mac on our behalf?

And, for anyone reading: I want to thank Mr. Bodo (my Ezra Pound) for taking my disconnected ramblings and turning them into intelligible thoughts. Pete, you're the best. And thanks for keeping a few of my odd constructions intact.

ESPN Bonnie take on Young and the DC experience fyi

http://sports.espn.go.com/sports/tennis/columns/story?columnist=desimone_bonnie&id=2830456

Actually, Don, you were an easy edit; would have liked to fly the end product by you for review but you know how fast we fly at TW! Seriously, though, if any altered construction or phrasing is troubling at all, just email me, we can fix it on the trot.

And Don - watching the matches - especially the doubles - it looked like the players were having tons of fun playing DC - did it appear like that in person ? and thanks for taking the time to post your impressions.

You did a great job giving us a peek at what the little boob tube doesn't give us about the matches!

I was disappointed not to see PMac give Fish and/or Querrey a chance to play singles on day 3, once the tie had been decided. IMHO, that's how you build a Davis Cup team for the future, and provide for depth if an untimely injury or other no-show should occur (as almost did this time with Roddick's hammy). As for the DC crowds, I still can't warm up to the cheering of errors by the opposing team. It's bush league, no matter the venue.

Hi Slice-n-dice, I really enjoyed this piece. I loved watching DC on tv as well and wish we had bitten the bullet and gotten tickets somehow. I especially enjoyed watching the fans and agree they were very respectful and knowledgeable.

One thing I want to ask and I truly don't mean this snarky one bit but do the team players really listen to PMac? Is there a level of respect for his coaching or he is merely a figurehead? Would Andy listen to PMac if it differed from what Jimmy Connors might tell him?

I also wanted to see Fish play on Sunday. I heard one announcer say he offered to pick up balls, do anything to be with the team.

MaineTennis: You are only allowed 4 players on a team. US had Andy, James and the Bryan bros. PMac couldn't just put in Fish/Querrey.

RobbyFan: I dont think PMac will ever go against Connors....so Roddick won't have that problem.... :-)

The guys like PMac and listen to him, but given the realities of the game etc., it's not like PMac is going to order Andy to stand closer to the baseline to receive; it's more like he'll observe that so-and-so is getting aces because standing back farther is opening up the angle, and then let Andy do what he will with it.

Slice-n-dice:
I thoroughly enjoyed reading about your DC experience. I attended all of the matches in W-S, too. I thought the music piped in through the PA was unnecessary, too. Overall, the crowd was rowdy, but respectful. Personally, I enjoyed the trumpet and other instruments that the Spanish fans used to show their spirit. I can only imagine the "spirit" the Spanish fans used in Seville when Spain/USA last played. Thanks for sharing with us!

"In the other match, Blake took out FernaVerda."
Although, Blake was scheduled to play Verdasco in the 5th match, he played Lopez instead.

Superlative report!

Andy roaming way back behind the baseline again? That's so early 06....

Slice-n-dice: Great report - made me feel as if I was there.

don, what a fantastic repport !
nice to hear also the background story of the city of winston-salem... and i agree with the robbery of prices for the drinks !
at least in RG they let you have your own picnic, tks god ! but one little 50cl perrier is about 3.5 euros...
special tks about my beauty legs tommy, i think he has one of the best footwork on towards or side to side movements.
it's strange that you mentioned about his slice because i've seen him used it, maybe not really effective in terms of low bounce but he barely uses it.

i think it's good for spain that emilio sanchez is now the DC captain, it has been allways strange that spain struggle with DC captains, and had no DC captain as charismatic as sanchez since ages !! and he has a great experience on doubles and he will bring a new spirit to the team. go spain on 2008 !

the only thing when you have such a great double team, it's one of the crucial point is guaranted but you can't mixed up in case of need.
that's why forget and tarpishev are so good at, with so many great single players they have plenty of combinations to surprise the other team and get the other captain the tricky job to find out your chances of winning.
it's the mental aspect of the ties that i enjoy very much : being in tarpishev shoes ;)
that's the chess game captains like them can afford to be playing because they have the choice.
many of them don't have that luxury, and there is also the pressure of fans expectations and big disapointment when their fav players are not in for whatever reason.
if you look at Pmac, he will never have to think about it as long as roddick, blake and the bryans are healthy to play.
he has his team set up from january to december, it's also a great asset, but the reverse of the medal is that if he gets in the tricky scenario to fix another team... he has not plenty of choice appart players with less experience of that particular and great competion DC is.
good luck for USA vs Sweden ;)

Sam - thanks. And kudos again on your great analysis. Isn't Pete the best?

robbyfan - Pete answered your question best, I think. I will merely add that I peeked through the binocs few times while Andy was on the bench, and P-Mac looked like he was trying to appear cool. he wouldn't look dirctly at Andy, but stayed calm, as if to say "Hey, I'm here if you need me, but I think you've got this thing under control, so fire away and have fun!"

TokyoTom (tt) - Yes, I believe the players really did enjoy the whole show. After all, it was huge and jubilant crowd, and they really got to showcase their strengths on the fast court. Blake and Bob Bryan seemed genuine when they praised the fans for pulling them through.

LONG LIVE DAVIS CUP! ALLEZ! OLE! VAMANOS!

Slice...great job. I am still open to your idea and will take you up on that.

Thanks for the report. It is great to hear what was going on that did not show up on television.

Thanks for your tremendous DC report, Don.
I'd love to attend a tie somewhere, sometime in the future.
I was particularly pleased to read that it sounded as though the atmosphere remained vibrant into the last day - it's great to know that people saw the matches right through to the tie's completion.

Thanks, Don, for your excellent report. I share the feelings of those who disapprove of the drowning out of the Spanish fans' cheers with the PA system. The local folk just need to be told that the ITF and DC team have limits (with pertinent examples) when it comes to support for the home teams.

And that matter is related to a minor question which I've wanted to pose to anyone who was in Winston-Salem. On the two days when I saw the beginning of the TV coverage, the broadcast started after the Spanish team had been introduced and were on the court and just before the fireworks etc heralding the arrival of the USA team. I just wanted to know what was the nature of the "show" for the Spanish team's entrance and whether the fans were, at least, politely welcoming to them.

I think some things are now a bit of what is modern Davis Cup = in the last tie for Spain / USA - the finals - I think it was like 26,000 in Spain and even the Spanish team were trying to tone down what was a new sporting experience for many of the spectators who brought the football atmosphere to the stadium.

I also remember the US team saying, while it was slightly anoying having people shout while the ball toss was going up, cheering mistakes and other such behavior - that they understood it was a DC final in Spain and that the atmosphere (even if they were the visitors) was fantastic and great to see so many people enjoying tennis. That the environment was electric.

I also think that is why the Spanish players, while not thrilled with the fast indoor court, understood the game being played as they brought out a soft clay court that evidently made RG look fast for the finals.

Good article Don! I watched most of all the matches on Versus and they were quite entertaining. And your back story and behind the scenes report enhanced the experience.

After watching this Davis cup tie, two questions came up in my mind. Why (in Davis Cup) are the teams limited to the four selected players? If there are more healthy singles players like Mardy Fish or Robby Ginepri available, why don't we play them instead of forcing Bob Bryan to play singles? It just seems like a small but bad restriction.

The other thing is actually a small gripe I had about the way the US players were introduced before the matches. They came out individually while the announcer sang their praises overhead and the spark-fountains shot sparks as they ran in. This being a team effort I would prefer all the players run out together amidst all the hoopla and then the announcer can go off on each of their accolades. I think that would have a more dramatic effect. What do y'all think?

"And kudos again on your great analysis. Isn't Pete the best?"

Thanks Don. And yes he is.

SnD, Thanks for the inside veiw of this DC tie. Too bad Rafa was not there, so you could have seen rafa destroy all the American team.

I felt glad for Blakey, to finally get momentum during a live DC match. Since rafa is not playing, and spain is out, it is ok if the Americans get this the Cup this year--but the Russians may stop them.

To all who wondered about the intros...

Both teams were announced in the same fashion: first, the team captain, then the players, with the top-ranked players introduced last. Now that I recall, though, David Ferrer was intriduced each day, and of course never saw any action. I wondered how he mus have felt like a heel at the time. But then, maybe Captain Sanchez simply chose to wager on his bigger hitters on the fast surface. It was reported a day or two prior to the tie that FernaVerda (Fernando Verdasco) was looking particularly good in practice.

The coliseum put the spotlight on both teams' captains and players as they arrived on the court. The only real difference was the sparklers that heralded the U.S. squad. It was a nice touch, but frankly, I would have preferred that both teams be treated identically.

Mardy was a good sport, and spent the entire time entertainin his pals on the bench.

As for Bob Bryan playing the inconsequential 4th rubber against Robredo on Day 3, he came out firing on all cylinders, and at 4-games apiece, made one simple tactical error that cost him the set. Serving at 30-40, he went for the flat ace up the T in the ad court, instead of going with the big can opener to Robredo's backhand, that had consistently produced a weak slice return, Had Bob gone to the well one more time, I believe he'd have volleyed that ball away and held serve. he the pressure would have been on Tommy to hold or go dow a set in what became a best 2 of 3 match.

As Dunlop Maxply and others have observed before, sometimes a match hangs in he balance of just a couple of shots, a handful of tactical decisions, a lucky break or two.

Slice and Dice, Thanks for a great report. I really enjoyed the NC background bit and the technical analysis.

If someone had told me at the start of the year that in 2007 I would be treated to watching Bob Bryan play singles twice ON TV I certainly wouldn't have believed it.

So now what needs to happen is for the US to play Germany in the finals with myself only being able to watch the dead rubber for the third time in a row: Bob Bryan vs. Florian Mayer.

----- "Too bad Rafa was not there, so you could have seen rafa destroy all the American team." ----

Yeah, Rafa fan. Too bad Manolo Santana wasn't there either, he would have showed 'em what's what! And Andres Gimeno, he would have crushed - crushed! - that Blake. And man, if Manolo Orantes were on board and Emilio Sanchez and Sergio Casal would have been playing doubles. . . Bryan bros, Pfffft. . . Man, the U.S. wouldn't have had a chance! Not a chance! We know who's great and who's not!

It's just so danged unfair that you actually have to show up and then beat somebody on the court to get credit for it in the books.

Ah, rafa fan, the surface at Winston-Salem would have been very tough on Rafa, and Blake has a pretty good record against him on the hard courts. Of course, Rafa probably would have taken out Roddick, and that would have made Day 3's matches a bit more dramatic. Blake rightfully deserves praise for taking out Robredo and sealing the victory for the U.S.

I really enjoyed your piece, Don; and yours too Sam!
I haven't been to a DC tie in 20 years, and I was wondering how they are sold--only as a 3 day package? What was the cost?

"So now what needs to happen is for the US to play Germany in the finals with myself only being able to watch the dead rubber for the third time in a row: Bob Bryan vs. Florian Mayer."

LOL, Sanja!!!!!

As a former resident of the Piedmont, I'd like to say thanks to Don R. for his wonderful and accurate description of one of the best places on earth to live!

JR

Yes, as a 3-day package at $60 plus all the handling and third-party charges. Comes to about $67, I believe. A great deal, IMO. Now, if they could allow people to bring in water and provide real beer, they'd have me for life.....

Blake played Feliciano Lopez in the 2nd dead rubber.

Thanks, Veruca Salt. That was sweet. :-D

My apologies for the inaccuracy. i'll leave it to Pete to correct the copy. Truth be told, I had to leave after the Bob Bryan-Tommy Robredo match (4th rubber), as my brother Tom, who joined me from D.C. and drove with me from Raleigh, had to get on back. mea culpa -- forgivenesses are appreciated :-D

Don, thanks for your detailed report. I really enjoyed it. Did you see any of Todd Paul (WF's # 1 ). It was my understanding he was brought in for practice, too. Originally , for James because he's a lefty, but I guess with Rafa out they really didn't need him as much.

hey Don, watch me eliminate the problem, presto! Ah, the magic of the Internet. I KNOW you just wanted to get that nickname, FernaVerda in there. . .

It’s a bit premature, and probably unrealistic in view of other probable commitments (Knicks, Rangers), but wouldn’t it be great if a Russia-US DC final could be held at Madison Square Garden in December?

All I can say about Blake v. Lopez was that my eye-candy quotient was filled that day.

Thanks, Pete. And yes, I did have a soft spot for the "FernaVerda" nickname. LOL!

cyancream, I was aware of Todd Paul, but have ever seen him, so he might have been on the practice court with James and I wouldn't have known it.

Yeah SnD, you may be right about that surface. You know rafa has said in the past, that the DC win over roddick was one of the most important to him, although obviously he has had many great wins, since then. I know alot of fans are dissapoint about this, and rafa is obviously upset not to be able to fight for espana. I hope he and fed will get back in the DC mix next year.

Just catching up on all this good blog stuff after I am busy organizing tennis leagues for the spring. Please let it get warm soon -- in the NE the weather is still very cold.

Sam, if you are around --great stat work on the "Tier time" post, along with all the contributers. You have all been doing some top Tier posting these days.

Pete, what's your take on the next step for the US in DC? Do you think Mat's gonna have the Wilanders to use indoor carpet to try to beat the US (the Thomas Johanson factor)? Or, do you think he'd use clay?

Don: I was happy for Blake. Hopefully that will help get his season going. Interesting thoughts on Robredo. He has a nice-looking game, but you're right that he lacks that extra gear needed for knockout punch type shots.

Your comment on the beer made me LOL. I would have opted for soda or water if those were the only beer choices. :-)

Miss North Carolina is lovely.

JR, rafa fan: Thanks.

JR
The following info will add to the answer Slice-n-dice gave you about the cost of the DC matches.

There were different price ranges, but I'm pretty sure that the tickets were only available as a 5 match package. I think the prices were $90, $190, $290, $390, & $490. (not sure about the two higher priced ticket levels) I purchased my tickets on the day USTA members were allowed to buy which was a few days prior to public sales. I finally got through the ticket sales' line around noon and the best seats available to me were the $190. The seats turned out to be FANTASTIC! I sat about 9 rows up from the court. I didn't even need my binoculars....except to spy on the teams sitting on the benches:)

"Blake has a pretty good record against him on the hard courts."

Blake is 3-0 against Nadal, all on hardcourts (2 indoor), and lost a total of one set in these matches.

JR: I don't know if it was on this forum or another one on which a poster said (and I echo him), "If the USA makes it and the final DC tie is held at MSG, I am so there!" :) I get the feeling that I'd see you there, too.

Thanks for the info about the start of the opening ceremonies, SnD.

Pete: I'm prepared for the tough going with The Road from all the commentary that I've read about it. Traveling the bleak landscape with the unnamed father and son sounds like a harrowing, but worthwhile, experience. And that (the "worthwhile" part) is much more than I can say for Marisha Pessl's Special Topics in Calamity Physics (not about physics), the 508-page novel that my group read for this month. It has its charming moments, but the person who chose tit is probably going to lose her next turn to recommend/select a title. :)

Mea culpa! My apologies -- SnD and Steggy. I deliberately did not put the novel comments on the Safinista thread where Pete and I had discussed McCarthy in order to avoid continuing OT there, and I meant to put them on MNP instead of adding them here.

Thanks, Luv. I had been toying with the idea of going, but I gather it was sold out almost immediately, so I guess I didn't even have that option.

Ruth--Yep, where do I sign up? (Early Xmas present.)Great media exposure, and I bet they could sell it out.

JR
Right after the DC tickets went on sale the USTA website stated that all of the tickets were sold out.
However, last week the website said that there were 250 tickets available. Perhaps some tickets opened up for some reason or another. Something to keep in mind if you try to get tickets in the future and there aren't any available.

nice report slice. I liked the time you spent on the history and description of the locale. Interesting about the communists and ku klux klan. It was a treat to watch the Bryan brothers. I loved the americans' fervour. They really went to town and seemed to appreciate the DC being brought to NC. I think it's kindof hard for me and others outside "middle America" to appreciate the importance sport and high school sport seems to play in the identity and prestige of each town and the reverence given to individuals and their families based purely on one's sporting prowess. I wonder if this "jock stereotype" has some truth or has been exaggerated by a coast based metropolitan media.

Ruthie - shoot me an email, would you?

Great post SnD - great fun to read this from one who was there. And of course - the roadtrip leadup set up the backdrop of the matches beautifully. Thanks for the time and the detail - I think you're spot on disco tommy's evaluation.

Thanks Slice-n-Dice! Couple of years ago I bought tickets to see Andy and Agassi at SAP open. However when we got there Robredo was still playing Mark Philippoussis and we got to watch that match as a freebie. Your writing reminded me of how I felt about Robredo's game. Silky smooth and greaceful, but lacking the raw power to hit through a top-10-ner.

Thanks, Slice-n-Dice, for a very thoughtful report. I'm very pleased to hear that so many were interested in the dead rubbers! I watched the first three, on TV, and found the doubles particularly exciting - would like to second other posters here and say that your report genuinely added to my experience. And I was interested by the comments on Donald Young, and on the behaviour of the team captains.

Ruth - no apollogies necessary. Rock on with literature!

Iain - Thanks. You wrote, "I think it's kindof hard for me and others outside "middle America" to appreciate the importance sport and high school sport seems to play in the identity and prestige of each town and the reverence given to individuals and their families based purely on one's sporting prowess. I wonder if this "jock stereotype" has some truth or has been exaggerated by a coast based metropolitan media."

Excuse my ignorance, but I think I'm missing your point. So I cannot agree or disagree, or even add a comment yet. Please take a minute to explain it simly. When I think of the U.S. team today, I don't really see any sports families, per se. yes, Thomas Blake, James' older brother, plays, as does John Roddick, Andy's older brother, but I don't believe either are from a "tennis family." Pete may have more insight there.

Sam, you're right on both counts.

Lizzie, Miss NC, was not what I would call a typical beauty queen. In fact, when she won Miss NC it was only her 3rd pageant, if you can believe that. the Miss America pageant was her 4th. A real down-to-earth gal with a million-dollar smile.

And yes, James hads ruled Rafa on the hard courts. I just didn't want to incite a riot, what with rafa fan feeling all blue about his Spanish team going out (wink wink).

jb and JAG - thanks for your comments and for the affirmation of my analysis of Robredo. Speaking of which, though, if I had to choose one player to show to a student and ask that student to emulate, it would be Robredo. I got the sense that his game hasn't really changed a lot from the juniors, only that he's gotten fitter and stronger, and constructs the points better. His is the epitome of the so-called "modern" game. It's beautiful to watch him contruct a point and carve up the court. When he's dicating play, there are few better. But when he's forced to play defense, his weaknesses are exaggerated.

Rosangel - you know I love hearing from you. Thanks for taking in my story. And yes, I agree that the doubles match was the highlight of the event. It was full of great shotmaking, drama and suspense, and even lousy chair umpiring. Lopez and Verdasco earned some points in my book, although Verdasco's wild swings at the net may have cost them any chance at either of the first two sets. The twin towers are freakishly good at doubles. Both serve big, return great, volley phenomenally, and have outstanding overheads. On top of all that, they have what appears to be a telepathic link.

Slice-n-dice, from one North Carolinian to another, great stuff!

I didn't get to see a danged minute of DC over the weekend -- only soccer, soccer, and yes, more soccer on tv where I am. And when it's not, you guessed it, soccer, it's Mexican league American football. I kid you not.

So I greatly appreciated your piece -- made up for not watching it, with some nice takes. I can practically taste that watery beer . . .

I just discovered this site two days ago and am really enjoying the blog andall the comments. Great report on DC. We were there as well -- Section 228, not too far from you S-n-D. It was my first DC experience and the atmosphere was great. One comment about drowning out the Spanish fans - I didn't appreciate the netheads doing the "ole, ole, ole" cheer. It seemed as though they were mocking the Spanish fans. By the way, the netheads are a group of avid DC fans who sit in a block of seats, all wearing red, white, and blue, and cheering vociferously. In Winston-Salem they were diagonally opposite each other in the stands and had some set cheers -- counting aces, etc. I think we should hold the finals (should we be there in December) in DC, our nation's capital.

Slice n' dice - just got home, and catching up. the bit about the bryans 'telepathic' link is interesting. I've read that before, but given the poor exposure of doubles on tv, haven't really seen them play too much. And of course, Sat i was too caught up in the match to analyse too closely. (You were MUCH better at that than I!).

Tommy has a nice clean game, I caught a lot of him in cincinatti last year and became much more of a fan. He seems to play consistently at his optimal level, which is great. Unfortunately, as you pointed out, without the 'extra' gear, he doesn't typically ramp it up to win something unexpectedly.

Still, he's a greatly under-rated player imo. (EG - that comment re: him not belonging at the MC last year...)

Please do attend more matches though - and make sure to report back!

Thank you for the marvellous report, Don. I really enjoyed reading your insights and analysis!

I'll echo what's been stated before - I too disapprove of the PA system trying to drown out the Spanish supporters. That's awful. I love enthusiastic, positive crowds, ie crowds that cheer loudly for their man, rather than at the opposition's expense.

Personally, I am not a fan of music played at tennis matches. I don't see the need. Let the crowd create the atmosphere.

Thanks again for the fabulous piece.

Susi: Welcome to TennisWorld. :) Since you're new, you might want to wander by the "New to Tennisworld?" category, located all the way up and to your right, in the Category sidebar. There, you'll find the Site Rules and a few FAQ's that might help you find your place here among us. :)

Pete,
If I may, there's one glaring error that I think should be fixed. It's in paragraph 11, as follows:

"That may help disguise his stroke, it also keeps him hitting shots like the very useful, cross-court, sharply angled "dipper."

It should read, "...it also keeps him from hitting shots like..."

Thanks,
Slice

Hey Slice-n-dice: excellent piece!

I especially enjoyed the attention to Robredo, a (not-so) secret favorite of mine to watch. You illuminated the technical reason for his lack of that extra pop brilliantly.

Which leads me to another observation. Used to be, they taught you to keep the wrist firm and closed through the forehand stroke. Now, with the dominance of the inside-out and inside-in forehands, it tends to lay back as Tommy's does. What I have yet to hear coaches recommend is what you prescribe for Tommy what Federer clearly does on his forehand: snap the wrist, which would be anathema to the earlier generation of "stroke mechanics." Looking at the super slow-mo footage of Fed on YouTube, he not only snaps the wrist but keeps a slightly closed racquet face through the shot to ensure the ball doesn't fly if he mistimes it. (If he mistimes but keeps the face closed, the ball simply lands short.)

Federer's forehand may be unique in its heaviness and accuracy, but do you see other players doing this? Will the "wristier" forehand become the de facto standard for forehands now? Has it already?

Since you commented on Robredo's lack of snap, and I haven't seen others treat this issue, I thought I'd ask you. Sorry if it's an excessively nerdy question.

Thanks, Ray. I'll second your question. I've been watching the same slow-mo, and wondering the same thing. Especially on the backhand.

I was taught the only thing that should move on the backhand is the shoulder. Lock the wrist and elbow, and generate power from the back itself. I have discovered, though, that I can generate mean pace by unwinding the elbow and wrist, so I watched said slow-mo and found Federer doing just that - not much, but visibly. I missed the importance of keeping the racket face closed, but will add that to the habituator.

Hi Ray - interesting in that several years ago I had to switch my game to a more open stance / more western forehand and one thing that was stressed was to NOT lock the wrist - rather on the take back lay back the wrist and keep it relaxed throughout the stroke with not so much a snap as a natural smooth motion as the racquet head accelerates from the low to high position, with the wrap almost around the shoulder on the follow through.

Having just watched the new IMAX "Wired to Win" focus on the Tour de France last night - my "new" wiring sometimes reverts in time of stress and if I keep a firm wrist - off the forehand launches to the fence. To generate the topspin and control that comes with it when amping up the acceleration of the racquet head one has to have a loose wrist and have the snap at the time of impact.

and on the backhand, I had less to change but again start the stroke high ( that also helps with disguise ) drop it below the waist with the wrist laid back and broken with the end of the racquet almost point at the ball (this is a one handed btw) and the off hand on the throat almost "pulling" it back and take the hand off and back for balance as the racquet head accelerates up towards the ball with a loose wrist and at the point of impact brush up and through the back of the ball with a proantion of the forearm as the racquet accelerates through the hitting zone with a follow through above the shoulder.

I had the most problem with the pronation of the forearm at the right time to get extra top on the ball and to get it to drop - and the timing of that pronation to influence depth of the shot - as in trying to get a short angle with pace but the top to get it to drop.

It was an interesting process to take a more traditional game and, with the help of a couple of different pros rewire the muscle memory to play a more modern game.

I should also have added that the grip on the racquet handle is "loose" as in not like a volley. So it is the combination of a loose grip and wrist that allows one to accelerate the head speed and generate enought top to get the ball to drop enough to stay in the court. When learning it the pro actually made me hit my strokes with my little finger off the grip to get the hang of it

Ray, codepoke and Tokyo Tom...

Thanks for pursuing this line of thinking, as I hoped someone would. The minute technical details are what excite me about the pro games, as they all (or 85%) perform the fundamentals well.

Tokyo Tom hit it on the head: first you must lay the wrist back (or cock it up, if you prefer, like Robredo and others), but then you must keep it relaxed enough to let it naturally push through torward the target and beyond as the momentum of the accelerated racquet head pulls the hand alond with it. What Robredo seems to do, is to frce his wrist back (cocked) and then does not allow it to relax, so his stroke is almost purely a brush stroke My good friend, who's a huge Robredo fan, and I talked about it on Day 3, and he agreed, noting also that Tommy's forehand is nearly silent, especially when compared to the big booms one ordinarily hears from the pros these days. Hence, he gets his points mainly with the disguise that he can achieve with this technique, coupled with his extraordinary footwork, peparation, and rotation.

I recommend you check out the USTA Player Development website for their Digital Video Library (found by clicking a liink off of this page: http://www.playerdevelopment.usta.com/news/fullstory.sps?inewsid=110778). It's very good. However, the forehand stroke they chose for Federer is a joke. He's leaning away from the shot and flicking what may be a topspin lob, doing his forehand no justice and teaching very little.

At any rate, the new forehand stroke from the open stance needs to include the relaxed wrist if you want to get the pop and power. What you'll see many smart players do is use both techniques, depending on the situation, their court position, and the shot they need. If you want to pass someone cross court, you might want to keepp the wrist laid back and firmed up some, relying more on the circular swing path and the upsweep motion to impart lots of spin and make it dip. If, however, you want to slash that big forehand cross court for a winner during a baseline exchange, you'll need to flatten it out a bit and get more pop by relaxing the wrist and letting the hand come through the contact zone completely.

As for the backhand, again Robredo keps the wrist cocked back throughout the stroke, thereby relying solely on his shoulder (rotator cuff). Federer and plenty of others will snap their wrist just as they have made contact and finish with the hand/palm opened up. This helps players get more pop AND spin. This is why I feel that Tommy's backhand is somewhat predictable: if he doesn't have the luxury of time, his stroke dictates that he go with depth, usually down the line or the center. He needs to have plenty of time to be able to pull it cross court, and he cannot dip it, or curl it, as easily as Federer. It's still a great backhand, and he rarely mishits it, but if I were on the other side of the net, I'd be slicing it deep and hard to that side and looking for the down-the-line pass. Then, during baseline exchanges, I'd look for him to try to draw me out wide off a ball he has time to set up on.

I hope this adds to the analysis.

Slice - I think we must have worked with the same Pro???????

Good points, Tokyo Tom. Thanks for adding your experience. I'm self-taught, starting at age 8, and all the way through college pretty much sliced everything, save for an occasional Lendl-like backhand passer. I've spent the last 15 years modifying my grips and strokes and learning the open stance game. I like to think I use them all fairly effectively, but when forced, I'll resort to my trusty slice.

One teaching pro friend of mine who hails from Zimbabwe (he actually was coached by Byron, Wayne and Cara Black's dad, in exchange for his working with Byron and Wayne), used to liken the topspin backhand to unsheathing a sword from the hip. Except that you must start with theracquet head high, then drop it into that position to let gravity assist with gaining acceleration. It' not a bad visual analogy, and actually can help if you struggle with getting below the ball and coming up through the hitting zone stringly with topspin.

Of course, as Tokyo Tom has mentioned, on both wings the racquet face must be closed. I once encountered a teaching pro's website that claimed he had proof that at contact all successful topspin strokes are hit with the racquet face perpendicula to the court. But if you look at a slo-mo of Federer, Blake, or even Robredo, you'll quickly see that his claim was rubbish. Roddick and Agassi were two of the rare pros who bring their racquet face to nearly perpendicular at the contact point. They also brush well up, whereas Blake and Federer, and even Robredo to some extent, come aroiund and across their bodies at about shoulder level, and sometime below.

(tt), I'm actually a PTR-certified pro myself, and am working with a couple of people on weekends. I've got a 14-year-old girl who's got great feet -- speed and stamina -- and I'm teaching her the Robredo stroke, essentially, until she can master the angles and deminstrate that she can carve the court. Then, and only then, will I ask her to relax the wrist some and start to drive through the ball more. Hers will be mainly a defense-oriented game built around her speed, agility, and court positioning. My hope is that she'll use the flatter stroke to end points when she's in good position and/or her opponent is well off the court. We're working the volleys, also, which is actually my personal specialty. I love analyzing volley technique. And I'll say it again, Mike Bryan's volley technique is incredible. It's flawless.

Slice = you would be a much better teacher as your descriptions are much better than mine, even though we are saying the same thing - and the arc of the racquet head from distance below the ball to the follow through to the amount and timing of the pronataion of the forearm determines the nature of the shot from a safer loopy topspin to a drive.

The other shot I learned that was really cool was if a ball is high as in chest height or higher one can dispense with the brush and top spin approach and simply lay back the wrist and smack it in a fairly flat motion coming inside out on both the forehand and backhand and get a flat rocket with a side spin on the ball that gravity will help drop as the trajectory of the ball off the racquet is above the net at the start (versus on topspin where one has to bring the ball up above the net and then get it to drop). The side spin will tend to move the ball away from the net rusher of center of the court and make the first volley even harder not to pop up.

If one needs to take it down the line with the wrist broken simply time the impact point more in front of the body versus slightly behind the body for the inside out forehand.

It is a great doubles shot and works well off the forehand and backhand side

Sorry... I meant "Bob" Bryan. Mik' volley is also superb, though.

Welllllllllllll = no wonder your descriptions are so much better than mine - I quickly defer to your expertise!!

(tt) -- funny you mention the "flat" slap off the high ball. I have ben teching my older brother, Tom, that shot, as he is a classic, continental-grip slicer who is often late preparing for his shot. No way in hail will he ever be able to drop to a semi-western or western grip and catch that ball at its apex with a circular sweeping motion. But he CAN use an eastern grip, or modified continental and use the wrist-back slap as you describe. It's a great shot, and you see the pros do it from time to time..... you're technical expertise is quite advanced! Who was your teaching pro, if you can share?

SnD,TT etc..Great thread about technique. And thank for the link to the digital library

(tt) -- no, no! Your descriptions are spot on! And you obviously have a good grasp of the technical elements of the changes you've made to your stroke. By the way, am I the only one who believes that the main reason players "jump" into their shots is NOT a result of the momentum created by their racquet acceleration, but rather mostly a function of the lower body needing to coplete its rotation, or pivt, and being unable to do so wothout injury if the feet stay glued to the court. That and the fact that the pros use their legs to "lift" into the shot to power through their topspin strokes. I find that even I, at 48 years old, need to let my feet break traction with the court on my open-stance forehands and bigger topspin backhands, or I twist a knee or roll an ankle.

I would be highly interested in your (and others') thoughts.

By the way, am I the only one who believes that the main reason players "jump" into their shots is NOT a result of the momentum created by their racquet acceleration, but rather mostly a function of the lower body needing to coplete its rotation, or pivt, and being unable to do so wothout injury if the feet stay glued to the court. That and the fact that the pros use their legs to "lift" into the shot to power through their topspin strokes.

S-n-D - This is the way it's been explained to me on several occasions as well.

Whoa! Thanks MUCHLY, Slice, Tokyo and codepoke - I'm glad I read this discussion.

Course, now I have much to work on and I think I know better how to improve my forehand, which flies when I "revert" in exactly the way Tokyo described...

Cool!

A combination of pros but the main guy was the Peter Burwash Pro at the Tokyo Lawn Tennis Club who really did the heavy lifting getting the light top to heavy top, open stance fundamental footwork, etc. Other a variety of pros who added bits and bobs here and there like "slap" shot.

I never played much of a slice and the opposite of you = had to learn to slice the ball after the other - still not all that great at it and envy people who can pull out that nice safe slice.

Most recent effort at a modernization of the old game is to learn the forehand slice that the guys use now when really stretched.

Re: the squash forehand get, Tokyo. I hit that one a bit - a tip I have is in order to change grips from western to continental I "throw" the racquet away from me and grip it lower on the handle while it twists from one to the other grip. This adds a tiny bit of reach while executing the grip change on the run.

other than how great it feels to really wail on a ball while suspended in mid air (something every pro I ever knew told me not to do) it is easier to really rotate the upper body. (btw no shot feels better to me that that slap shot while off the ground).

Seriously thought - I have been told and believe jumping at a shot simply makes the timing more difficult versus the preferred "solid hitting stance" that the great movers take many small steps to achieve prior to the execution. Something I am always working on.

Fed and others always say (given their techinque is so solid) the most important part of any shot is the footwork required to get into position to then execute the technique.

And a major part of winning is taking time to do that away from one's oponent while finding time oneself to get into that position.

Fed's defense is (I think) all about survival until he gets the "time" advantage to get into the position to regain control of the time element of a particular point.

thanks ray - will try that - I am getting a friend who plays squash to help me learn it !!

Ray and Tokyo -- excellent discussion of the "squash" shot that Champagne Kimmie made famous again and which we see federer and others employ frequently these days as a great way to neutralize a huge forehand to the corner.

On to the slice that Tokyo has some difficulty with. First, you mut uit thinking of it as a "safe" shot, becaue in many awys it is not, and that mental approach can result in a chop or push instead of an offensive shot. The slice, when hit well deep to the court, will clear the net by inches to less than 2 feet, unlike the topspin shot to the same part of the court, which may clear the net at between 2 and 5 feet. Also, a slice may float deep or drift wide, while the topspin will bend in.

A story: I was working with a 4.5-5.0 player who wanted to add some variety and pop to his game. He had a beautiful one-handed topspin backand, and great wheels. On this particular night, he wanted help with his slice backhand, whcih was a defensive chop. So I fed him several balls to midway between the service line and the baseline, and sure enough, he was late getting prepared and chopped every one, in sharp contrast to his early preparation on his topspin backhand. So I brought himto the net and we talked. Come to find out he used to have a two-fisted backhand, dropping it for the one-handed several years earlier. And, as I suspected, the only time he would go to a slice was when he was in deep trouble and way off the court; essentially, when he was in a completely defensive position. So, I knew immediately what had to be done -- get him to quit thinking of the lice as a defensive shot, as that thought pattern was wreaking havoc on his neuro-motor transmitters and causing him to fold up like an accordion. I then fed him a series of four balls, ach one shorter than the one preceding it, so that he had to step in and take it moving forward. I asked him to then finish the shot by following the ball to the net. A few weeks of this drill, and a few others to focus on his wrist movement and his shoulder lean and follow through, and he was cured. He hits a very effective slice backhand today.

"By the way, am I the only one who believes that the main reason players "jump" into their shots is NOT a result of the momentum created by their racquet acceleration, but rather mostly a function of the lower body needing to coplete its rotation, or pivt, and being unable to do so wothout injury if the feet stay glued to the court."

Not letting the lower body to complete the rotationa natually could explain the prevalence of meniscuses-tears among rec players?

Tokyo, excellent point about Fed and taking time away and giving yourself more time.

"And a major part of winning is taking time to do that away from one's oponent while finding time oneself to get into that position.

Fed's defense is (I think) all about survival until he gets the "time" advantage to get into the position to regain control of the time element of a particular point."

I couldn't have said it better. Mind if I borrow?

JAG -- Yes! You said it. Teaching pros beware: let the body make the little adjustments it needs to; inisting on some ideal form can be harmful.

of course and now I need to work on my 14 year old girl disguise to get Slice to help with not only my volley but also my slice backhand. (btw I think I should be afraid to show up around Ray effectively disguised as a 14 year old girl) to work on the squash shot!

On volleys, the best tip I can give is this: maximize your foot movement, minimize your hand/racquet movement. Everything else is an extension of this principle. Nevermind the swinging forehand volley from midcourt for now.

Tokyo, I'm, uh, flattered. Or is that flustered?

More to the point, I want a coach too, preferably Slice. Then maybe I'd be on the pro tour instead of blogging about it. HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA.

Sorry to interrupt guys, it's time to close this one down. Feel free to move your conversation over to the MNP (or Wednesday Racket, when it goes up). Thanks.