First ever!

fed and nadal to quailify from group b with a loss of a set and im not sure of group a with berdych able to blast past murray,unable to beat djokovic and it is a pick em with ferrer,but alot will depend on the fitness of murray and more importantly djokovic,2 great groups to be honest shame del potro couldnt be there,i dont know but i have a terrible feeling fed is going to win it at a canter again without any opposition,but for him he must pray tsonga isnt at full confidence and nadal is rusty and plays him first

come on murray

All I hope for is for Rafa not to lose all 3 matches a la 2009.

Nam1: I second that!

I think it should be a good tourney this year. Alot of good contests. As Fed said, anyone can win this thing. But I think it would be a very tough task for Fish or Ferrer. But you never know, right?

But I do think the winner will be one of the Top 4.

thanks for a great post.

World Tour Finals Order of Play

Sunday
9 AM - Roger Federer vs Jo-Wilfried Tsonga
3 PM - Rafael Nadal vs Mardy Fish

Monday
9 AM - Andy Murray vs David Ferrer
3 PM - Novak Djokovic vs Tomas Berdych

http://tennis.si.com/2011/11/14/atp-world-tour-finals-preview-london/

here's a nice breakdown of the top eight players.

thanks for information on the matches , Master Ace.
It is appreciated.

MA, any predictions?
i wonder how the "vacation" will impact nadals play.

Nam 1, Slate,

All I hope for is that Rafa LOSE ALL 3 MATCHES a la 2009!!!!!!

LOL

Would love it if Fed and Fish are winner and runner up of their group, and Tsonga winning one match.

And would love it if Novak and Fed meet in the Final with Fed vanquishing Nole, (btw Novak's one of my all time favorites).

That would be a very fitting end, and similar to last year, when he beat then-No. 1 Rafa in final.

I just want Roger to win this for the 6th time, as no one has!!!!!!

Pete

Thanks.I am not a fan of Fish and his game though I must give him credit for his good results this year and making the final 8 in London.Its a shame he has a injury and yes he can give Rafa a real test in their first match.Rafa has yet to conquer the court surface in London.His spin is neutralised and he has trouble with the "low bounce of the court"though he did make the final in 2010 where his "flaws" on this court were exposed by Federer.

Fernando says the Humble Bull's focus is Davis Cup and he will not risk injury at the WTC. Do not look for heroics. He will not push very hard. Expect great things against the Argentinians and at OZ where he will be primed.

Fernando has been imploring the French Federation to work with Tsonga on his backhand footwork. They are a stubborn bunch,for sure. Tsonga has a tendency to short arm his BH because he sets up too close to the ball. It is a weakness that could be turned into a strength with the proper coaching. Fernando

I can't imagine anyone not unbelievably happy for Mardy. I mean, is it not the perfect case of 'hard work paying off' - he dropped the pounds, his game improved amazingly, he got the confidence and carried it around for an entire year. I thought he'd fade this year - quite the contrary. Amazing achievment, no words to it.

I'd be thrilled if he can win two out of three of his matches. Really does depend on his fitness, as well as what Rafa can bring after twiddling his thumbs for a month.

Or: I think that's the best post anyone has written about Fish on TW. :)

I think Nadal will be fine. He took a similar break before the WTF last year too. He did really well there - I think beating Novak and Murray.

Arun - different frame of mind for Rafa, maybe, last year. With three Slams, WTF was a bonus.

Arun

I love your confidence with Rafa

Though he is not at the same playing level as 2010.

Fish sure has nothing to lose so he will be dangerous. But against Nadal he does not match up well (even though he matches up even worse vs Nole) because of his flat shots. With Nadal you have to have a reliable topspin (why Murray is bad match up for Rafael - he has no natural ability to generate pace on the flat forehand but that does not hurt him like against some other players it seems). So Nadal wins even though his focus is surely in Davis cup and he has not played a month.

Federer is a little bit tired after these two wins, he is with Tsonga first and it is difficult to defeat him two times in such a short period of time. It will be tough for him. Tsonga to win that match

Andy getting Ferrer, another guy who has bigger things on his mind. Andy is a bad match up for Ferrer on hard courts so there is no reason for that trend not to continue.

Berdych is the key for this group. He has what it takes to take down Murray like in Paris, but Murray and Nole back to back... very difficult. If he beats Ferrer that he has a good shot to get one more win and reach semis

Interesting what Tsonga said of the draw - he is happy with his group. He has confidence that he can get it done against Nadal on this type of surface (Australia 2008 SF is his match of the career so far) and Federer (Wimbledon this year has to come second?) and he thinks beating Fish is much easier.

It kind of makes sense. He does not want to play Nole and Andy who both have amazing returns and that takes away his biggest weapon - that serve. Also he is very agresive of the ground but Andy and Nole are so quick and great counter punchers. Rafa is the best defender for sure, but his return is not in Nole and Andy's league.

Ferrer knows that even when he is "in form" indoor hardcourt is his worse surface. He is a pit perro for sure and his competitive juices will flow but Espana must win Davis cup. This is an imperative for us. We cannot risk injury at the WTC.

Fernando

Hmmm I think Nadal actually is less motivated at this year's WTF than last year. Last year he was on top and everyone was saying it was the last big title missing in his resume and he wanted it.

This year w/ all the losses to Djoko he's got other concerns on his mind. In the interview posted on the other thread he basically says he's practicing now and preparing w/ next year in mind, not really the end of this year. It even seemed to me he said that he wasn't really eager to play Djoko at WTF, would rather wait 'til next year.

Of course once the matches start you'd think the instinctive competitor in him would take over. And if Novak is still struggling w/ injuries it could be a great opportunity for Nadal to finally bag this title. (But of course he'd need to get out of his group to do so; clearly doable for him in good form, but not in poor form I'd guess.)

I know it is little crazy but maybe we are going to have a similar story like in 2009.

Tsonga vs Murray final

Jo winning it all :)

But I hope I am wrong and greedy Nole car takes it ALL!

I'm not writing off anybody. All have a good chance to win even Fish.

"Ferrer knows that even when he is "in form" indoor hardcourt is his worse surface."

I dunno, he was amazing in 2007 TMC and made the final.

Zeljana - I am not sure Fish is such a bad match-up vs. Rafa. (Is my mind playing tricks, or doesn't Mardy have a win over Rafa?) Assuming that the court plays like it did last year - medium fast/low bounce. Mardy's serve can win him a decent number of cheap points on a court like that. Of course, he has to be healthy and serve very well to have a chance to advance in his group, period. And I am not sure his injury has had enough time to heal properly. Still, I am very glad he is there and getting his crack at it.

+Nadal will be fresh but certainly not in battle-hardened condition.+(Pete)

+i wonder how the "vacation" will impact nadals play.+ (james)

+ Really does depend on his fitness, as well as what Rafa can bring after twiddling his thumbs for a month.+
(Or)

Well, all I can say is that I'm sure Rafa's fans are hoping that his six-week absence from competition will produce the same wonderful "rust" which Roger's six-week absence produced, that rust which helped him to win back-to-back tourneys upon his return to work. hehehehe

P.S. Don't worry if you don't get the full humor/sarcasm of this comment; the appropriate TWibers and TWexperts will get it, I'm sure. ;)

Now, I must say that if I thought Rafa had been twiddling his thumbs for 4 or 5 or 6 weeks, I'd fully expect to see some genuine rust on Sunday; but I think that he's been both resing and actively making good use of his time off, just as Roger did.

Ruth

I get you ok lol!

Well Rafa hasnt been sitting idle or twiddling this thumbs

He has been workiing on his game and physcial fitness and of course playing the odd game of golf and a bit of fishing in between

Match play is the "key" to anyone's success I feel.

shravan, please don't go there with people, even Fernando. Everyone is entitled to an opinion and an equal voice regarding tennis on this site.

That 8-year old Boris Becker is priceless. Wait a minute, maybe that's his son.

@Bodo

'the "fifth major" if you will'

HAHAHAAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAH

AM, I agree. It's about how each player plays on a day.

Yes, Fish can beat Rafa or Roger - he has done so before: Mardy is 1-6 against Roger and 1-7 against Rafa.(Both wins for Mardy on outdoor hard.)

Jo is 2-6 agaisnt Rafa, 1-5 on HC, 0-2 on IH.
Jo is 3-6 agaisnt Roger, 2-5 on HC, 0-2 on IH.

Jo and Mardy have only played once, a 5-setter at USO which Jo won. Too little h2h data to make any conclusions.

And Roger and Rafa are 7-18, 4-4 on HC, 3-0 on IH.

So, judging from those results then most likely Rafa beats Jo and Mardy, Roger beats Jo, Mardy and Rafa, and Jo - Mardy goes either way, really. But on a day, who knows. Each match *could* go either way, depending on the day's form - which, ultimately, is what makes it interesting. On a good day (or the other player's bad day) at least they're all capable of beating each other, which is as it should be since they're all in top 8.

Ruth, agree with your 6:37 PM, too.

Here are my predications and Im never wrong…..

Fed will lose to Tsonga on Sunday but will prevail against Rafa and Fish. Tsonga will join him with two more wins.

In group A- I believe Andy and Tomas will move one. Nola is too weak now… Fed will beat Andy and Jo will beat Tomas B.

Not sure about the final… can go either way but I think Fed will win in 3 sets…. Just like in the past two years, I will be at the O2 Arena to watch and support Fed.

Go Fed!!!

It's interesting that Murray is considered a bad match-up for Rafa and Ferru usually isn't. Yet, Murray is 5-13 against Rafa, Ferru 4-13, which is almost the same.

(Murray-Rafa 5-6 on HC, 1-2 on IH. Ferru-Rafa 3-3 on HC, 1-0 on IH.)

**djokovic, nadal, murray, and fish, all have injury clouds hovering over them...the other four frolic in the sunlight.

[Cross-posted from next door]

"While players' comments should not necessarily be taken as the whole truth (as NP keeps reminding us), I would much rather listen to the opinions of multiple Slam winners such as J Mac and Rosewall and many others who have, you know, actually played the game at its highest level than the assorted opinions of self-proclaimed "insiders" and "experts".

"NP has many good things to say but it seems to me he is too quick to dismiss the opinions of great players who happen to say something not to his liking. They may not always be right but their views are worth considering a hell of a lot more than those of the multitude of tennis "teachers" and so-called coaches out there who have never played the game at the world class level. Hacks and ain't-never-beens, the majority of them."

monterey, I usually avoid this silly talk about "expert" opinions, but since you seem reasonable enough I'll explain why you and others should be wary of taking these comments too seriously.

But before I start: I do NOT dismiss players' opinions! No pro's opinions should be dismissed out of hand, especially not those of the top players who can provide some valuable insights, even when they're wrong. What I really object to is how these opinions are dispensed & spread around, and the notion of this so-called consensus the media try to build around them.

There are a couple of things fans need to understand here. I'll go over them one by one:

1) If you look carefully, you'll see that these players seldom give their opinions voluntarily, but rather get baited into providing soundbites that are supposed to help pitch the game. A great example is Mac's post-'09 Wimby final interview with Fed, Pete, Borg & Laver (that was an awesome sight, BTW), where he asks them right in front of each other whether they thought Fed was now the GOAT. (Predictably it made for an awkward moment.) Many of these "interviews" are done the same way, ambush-style, though it might not seem that way on paper.

2) These players are often noncommittal in their answers, and have at other times said otherwise. Fed KADs love to quote Laver saying how he'd be honored to be compared with their hero, while conveniently ignoring (or, at best, remaining ignorant of) his uncharacteristically self-confident statement that he'd give himself a chance against anyone with wood, and his ever-insistent opinion that one can be only the best of his own era. And I know Mac has vacillated between Fed & Laver, and also recently backed Pete on fast surfaces over Fed despite his earlier assessments. There are plenty of other examples.

3), and somewhat related to 1), many of these players are also pundits, so they say things that they think will help promote the current game, at times without even realizing it. Remember Mac calling Rafa one of the best volleyers in the game today, even better than Fed? (As you can see, Mac as a pundit is in a class by himself, much like him as a player.) Now I assure you, some of the Fed KADs who were suddenly badmouthing Mac for this blasphemy, are the same ones who praised him to the skies while he was hyping up their hero! And Cash also got burned recently for daring to say that Nole's competition today is better than anything Fed ever faced. See the pattern here?

Of course you can always find a few exceptions. Wilander for one has said some outrageous things over the years, and not always approvingly of Fed (as I'm sure you know), but even he has gotten onto the Nole bandwagon, marveling at how his movement is so much better than Fedal's, etc. That was not long after he had just invited Fed onto his show and introduced him as the GOAT. (It's on YT somewhere, if you're interested. The shameless volte-face is pretty hilarious to watch.)

If you go back and revisit some of the old articles & clips, you can't help but notice that whoever was the best at the time used to be subjected to the same hero worship as Fedal & now Nole today. Do not expect this to change anytime soon.

Which brings me to 4): Players are also human, not unlike the rest of us. I remember Mac commentating near the end of the '01 Wimby final and, obviously (& understandably) overcome by the atmosphere, calling it the greatest match he had ever witnessed. I can't even count how many times he has pulled out the GOAT card over the years, and that's just off the top of my head.

Similarly, when you see Safin and other Fedal contemporaries drone on & on about how the two are the best ever, there's the unavoidable element of their susceptibility to media hype. And also bias, especially in case of a Safin whose prime, if you recall, overlapped with the decline of Sampras & Agassi and the emergence of Fedal. Mind you, I'm not trying to say Safin or some of these other players are necessarily wrong. But if you played someone near the end of his career and then another at his peak, don't think your impression might be affected by the disparity? You bet.

BTW I don't deny that this bias works the other way, 2. When you hear Kafelnikov say he can't imagine even Fed being better than Sampras, you should keep in mind that Pete flat-out owned Kaf, even on clay (splitting their 4 meetings, both of Pete's losses coming only in '96), which could influence his judgment accordingly. Moya said something similar in '06, even while Fed was dominating the tour like few others in history (and obviously more than Pete). Could he have been right? Yes, but then Moya got thrashed by Pete in their '97 AO final, which might have left a lasting impression. Also Kuerten recently said that while he respected what Fed had accomplished, he didn't feel like Fed had had to face the level of top talent that a few other former No. 1s did. Again, maybe he's right, or maybe not, but we do know that he matched up better against Fed than against Pete, hence their H2Hs, which in turn might have clouded his judgment.

Of course you hardly hear about any of this, because the current players far outnumber the past veterans as prominent pundits, and they're the ones who are asked to provide opinions 24/7. The KADs then cherry-pick some of these opinions and manufacture a "consensus," though it's far from representative of all "expert" opinions, and declare that nearly every "expert" thinks Fed, Rafa or Nole is the best in this or that, much like they did with those handpicked quotes from mostly PR articles. Which is exactly what those articles hope to achieve.

Which in turn brings me to final & perhaps most important point 5): These "experts" simply aren't as expert & knowledgeable as you think. The endless nonsense about the slowing down of surfaces is a case in point. The media and partisan fans (many of whom anti-KADs, in fact) love to point to a select interviews where the player moans about how slow the courts have become, as if these comments somehow constitute proof that the courts have indeed slowed down. Sometimes we even hear that the USO is now the fastest major.

What they don't get, though, is that this whole moaning about surfaces is not new. I guarantee you, there are snippets from a few '90s pressers that you could show to a random sample of these people, and they wouldn't be able to tell where they originated! Look closely and you can see that most of the far-fetched quotes, like Henman saying how the Wimby grass courts were the slowest he'd played on all yr, come almost always after a loss. I know Becker said something to the same effect after one of his 1st-round losses, and more recently you heard the same sour grapes from Ljubicic. And as I remind people time & again, the rigmarole about the USO being the fastest major is simply not supported by facts, as stats show that Wimby is still by far the most serve-friendly of the 4 Slams. And then you have someone like Blake admitting that he's terrible at judging court speeds, but of course you rarely hear this from these partisans. They pick the most sensationalist quotes and try to pass them off as the truth, when facts say quite the opposite.

And then you have Sampras gushing about how he'd just played the best tennis after he won the '02 USO, though RoS stats show that his return game had declined precipitously. Or Agassi about how he was now hitting & moving better than ever after his much-publicized training, though, again, his view wasn't supported by the facts, and subjectively it was quite obvious that he had already lost a step or two.

Now, you can attribute some of this to the heat of the moment, or simple human fallibility, which would place it more under 4) than 5), but there still remains the possibility that these top players in fact don't know as much about the game as you think. Trust me, I have learned more about tennis and history from a select (obscure) coaches and online posters than I ever did from a Borg or Sampras, who provides little useful content but one cliche after another in their media appearances.

And that possibility becomes a probability if you consider the fact that great players rarely make great coaches, and that's true not just in tennis but in other major sports. So you have middling players like Stefanki or Phil Jackson at the top of the ladder, and even a nearly complete "ain't-never-been" (to use your own term) like Popovich achieving nearly as much as Jackson.

How so? It actually makes sense if you think about it. These guys didn't have any big weapons that could overpower his opponents, so they had to learn all the aspects & subtleties of the game. They also had to work harder. Conversely, the great players were able to beat most of their peers purely on talent, so their knowledge of the game itself remained relatively undeveloped.

That's why you should be careful not to give too much weight to an "expert" opinion simply because it came from the mouth of a Mac or Sampras. I don't mean to pile on Mac too much, but I remember him once wondering how he could serve so much harder in his 50s than he did in his prime, without irony, though it's well known to serious tennis fans (an admittedly small group) that today's radar "inflates" serve speeds by 10-20 mph, as they're now measured just as the ball leaves the racquet, not near the net. And that also explains why some of these GOATs aren't exactly the best when it comes to tactics. And so on.

Long story short, don't let the media fool you. There's no "consensus" of "expert" opinions, and many of these "experts" aren't as knowledgeable as you think. What you can say about these cherry-picked quotes is that someone said this at a certain point in time. Nothing more and nothing less.

Later.

well, at least they evened up the groups pretty well - two long shots (fish/ferrer) in different groups, two questionables (novak -physically, nadal - mentally) in different groups, two players who can be night and day depending on the day (tsonga/berdych) in different groups and then the two top contenders (fed/murray) on different sides.

**why not have a big goose run around the court at the wtf before the first match...although be sure to gather up the goose as a rouge goose might interfere with play.

This is irrelevant but I thought I'd post it anyway.

I was just watching videos of both Roger and Rafa during practice sessions at various different tournaments and I realized that the consensus among the commentors is that Federer doesn't take practice seriously and that he could be more intense.

I think it comes down to the fact that Roger is just naturally a more gifted player. He's like the kid in school who is naturally intelligent - so much so that he/she doesn't bother studying for tests because it just comes naturally to him/her.

Even just looking at their groundstrokes, Roger's are so effortless and fluid, whereas Rafa's look kind of stiff and contrived. Just my observations.

I'm jealous of NP being able to write essays like the one above. It would probably take me a week to compile a comprehensible essay that long while he probably wrote that in about the same time it took me to read through it, lol. And it was good, too. Damn.

From the previous thread I really liked this: "I don't pretend to be objective. I prefer to think of myself as fair & biased."

Indeed, nobody is objective and all are biased. All don't even try to be fair, though, and I think you do, and also manage it well as far as players are concerned. I don't agree on everything, but that's a different matter.

Rafa looks pretty happy in this... ;)

http://postimage.org/image/o0d2ppw55/

Tuulia

:))

yes, he does

Matt- yes it's irrelevant but it's your perspective and opinion so while I think you are wrong and biased, about Rafa, I draw the line at calling people stupid, just because they have a different opinion than me.

I wish some others would draw that line too.

NP, service stats - especially where grass comes into the equation - are not simply a function of surface speed. Something any serious tennis fan like you should know.

FWIW, Fernando, you are hilarious!

I hope you continue posting and do tell Rafa and Daveed to take it easy and not screw things up before DC final.

oh and while you are doing that, could you also tell Rafa to polish up that US Open serve?

Please and thank you.

I don't post here much (despite being here before most of you were born), and I don't even visit that much (TW has outgrown me), but when I do, NP and msf make it well worthwhile (there are many others, but they are harder to find).

Nam1,

Sometimes it's appropriate to cross that line (see Fernando).

And yes, obviously my opinion isn't fact. But I see it hard to argue against. Any fan who is indifferent about Roger and Rafa would probably agree that Roger's groundstrokes seem more fluid than Rafa's. It's just common sense, really.

To each their own I suppose.

"Well, all I can say is that I'm sure Rafa's fans are hoping that his six-week absence from competition will produce the same wonderful "rust" which Roger's six-week absence produced, that rust which helped him to win back-to-back tourneys upon his return to work. hehehehe"
or it might produce the same results like federer had after a month off before clay season, hehehehehe...
so the recipe to win back-to-back tournaments is to take 6 weeks off, best kept secret in the world:-)
ps: not just appropriate Twiber, but every1 will get the humour out of this..

"To each their own I suppose."

yes, my point exactly.

I also think Matt is wrong both about the two players and the school kids.

Also, "the naturally intelligent" kid who "doesn't bother studying" can't actually be all that intelligent - lazy, more like. ;)

"despite being here before most of you were born"

Oh my goodness, how old is this site? Older than the internet?

hey Tuulia

I wanted to thank you for the cute picture of Rafa in Euro Disney with his little cousins.

I wonder if he chartered a plane to bring the whole gang to Paris.

too cute!

""despite being here before most of you were born"

I think he means "being here" on this earth as opposed to TW.

Just a random guess!

:))

Nam1 - my pleasure :)
No idea about the travel arrangements.

"I think he means "being here" on this earth as opposed to TW."

It's a possibility, but not logical in the context of the issue (why would older age mean one would post more?) or the sentence where an earlier "here" refers to TW.

Matt-allez Roger,

Tipycal Fedex KAD observations, too much delirium tremens.:)

Pfft- Roger is a gifted, lazy bum and Rafa is robotic workaholic. Not. :-) But it is an easy and convenient narrative. Makes subtlety of..or even much actual observation... unnecessary.

For some reason, during my run/jog/walk/stumble today... (in hunting season blaze orange vest - which made me look like a giant squash rumbling down the road) - I was thinking about Andre Agassi, of all people. It seems to me that virtually all the top players, (of all eras) are extraordinarily gifted in genetic make-up...speed, eyesight, hand eye co-ordination, etc. But all pay the piper's price. AA had a congenital back problem which made playing sometimes an agony for him. Sampras suffered from a blood disorder which could sap his strength. Rafa has a congenital foot problem. Novak has/had breathing issues and gluten intolerance. Even so called injury free Fed has a semi-permanent back problem which waxes and wans. (Hey! No back waxing!!) Murray has...um...and unpleasant whingy on court personality?? Yet all these guys, whether they make what they do look easy or difficult, have taken the best of nature's gifts and forged it on the anvil of nature's curses.

Pretty is as pretty does...effects one personal preference and not much else.

(He) was just making a slight exaggeration. :)

"Murray has...um...and unpleasant whingy on court personality??"

Doesn't Murray have the knee thing, I forget the medical name but it's some sort of chronic condition.

Ross

thanks for clarifying!

I am a Rafa fan, no sense of humour or subtlety at all, you know!

:))

(I wrote the comment below more about an hour ago after reading Matt's @*;14, but I kept getting the 'we cannot accept message...), so I just saved it and decided to try later -- not that it's that important. ;) Let's see if it goes through this time.)

Matt: Two things about those practice sessions you mentioned:

First, the really serious practice sessions between players and their coaches do not take place during tournaments; they take place in the days or weeks leading up to the tourney -- in private. The on-site practice sessions are more like warmups or daily tune-ups; and, in places where the sessions are totally public (like IW), they are definitely part of the PR and entertainment for the fans.

Second, often during tourneys, the richer (and better known players) often do their practicing off site at private facilities. The parents of a good friend of mine live in one those many condo developments near the IW venue, and she said that they complained every year (half-heartedly, I'm sure), about how they were prevented from using their tennis courts because they were handed over at different hours to IW players to practice privately. One year, their two grandchildren (both college tennis players), who were visiting with them during IW, had the thrill of their lives when they saw Andre and Steffi heading to practice on one of the indoor courts.

Another year, my friend described to me two players who were sweatily practicing on a hotel court away from the site. She wasn't sure who they were, but, after she described the strange hair of the "skinny" one and the scruffy, low down on his neck, mostly grey hair of the older guy, I realized right away that she'd seen Nole during the time when he was working with Todd Martin. :)

I just wanna know who the understudies are - I think this morning someone said Almagro was the first alternate, but I thought Tipsarevic overtook him in the rankings as of yesterday. Alternates might turn out to be a big factor this year, after Novak's arm falls off....

Nam 1- yes...good catch! They are all halt, lame and generally both blessed and charged by the DNA gods...

I see CL is also exaggerating ;) - nobody called Roger lazy or Rafa robotic or a workaholic. Well, I suppose the commentators referred to by Matt did imply the lazyness bit. I thought the question is basically about the intensity of the practice sessions some folks have observed. It's easy to believe Rafa's tend to be intense, that's just his personality, but intense practice doesn't imply robotic (???) or workaholic tendencies. (I don't know where "robotic" even comes from into all this.) As for Roger, even if practise isn't as intense it obviously doesn't mean he's lazy, and in any case he wasn't born with the tennis skills, he has had to learn and practise them. (That was one of the things where I disagreed with Matt.)

...and please note the wink above :)

off to bed again - slept a few hours earlier, though badly - it's 5.11 AM now...

tina: Tipsarevic is the first alternate, Almagro is the second alternate.

Ah, chegu, just saw yours @ 9:14, and I guess you missed the "humor/sarcasm" of the comment. Too bad. Try reading, maybe just the first 11n words -- slowly -- and you'll get it! As one of the strong believers in the power of rust, I thought you and like thinkers would not only get it, but love it. :)

Ross: Hey there, you old fogey! Whaddya mean TW outgrew you? You sound just like some of our other NYT tennis forum pals whom I tried to convince to join us at TW years ago when you and I discovered TW almost simultaneously. No, no, they said, too big and too busy! They're still at the Elba site, and I pop in now and then.

Yeah, Nam1, I also thought Andy had some kind of knee thing.

What's funny about Matt's observation is that it's a stereotype Rafa appears to share. In his book he made comments to the effect of Fed's so talented he doesn't have to practice as hard as he does, sth like "they tell me Fed doesn't practice very hard. It figures," lol.

If you asked Fed he'd say that in his younger years he may have been like that smart kid in school who can get good grades without studying as hard as the others but that if he'd kept that attitude he might have made top 10 but would never have had the kind of career he's had. He's said multiple times that when he turned pro, and even more once he became #1, it was important to him to work as hard as he could to get everything possible out of his talent. Lots of observers have said he works extremely hard during his training sessions away from tournaments.

It's true his tournament practices are relaxed, but he probably feels that's physically/mentally necessary for him. Everyone has what they need to keep their physical/emotional balance. For example, Nadal likes to party 'til very late at night, and then will still get up early and practice. That's probably not very good for him, but he says he needs both the partying and the practice to feel good (I guess sleep is optional?). Fed on the other hand leads a quieter life even on vacation w/ more sleep; does that mean he's more serious about his career than Nadal?

Different strokes for different folks.

thanks wilson - that's what I thought, but I just haven't been around to check out the official site. I have a feeling both alternates will see action this year.

How could anyone who has heard about or read about Roger's long, intense practice sessions in the heat of Dubai think that he practices casually? i doubt that his attitude toward practice or training sessions is just a once-a-year pre-AO thing.

Ruth,

I can understand how the actual practices between coaches and players happen in private, but if you compare the "warm-up practices" of Roger and Rafa you still see the contrast, in my opinion. But I see your point.

As for what I said earlier, I just want to clarify that I wasn't intending to undermine Rafa's talent, achievements or work habits. My opinion is obviously biased, but from what I observe when I try to be indifferent is that Roger appears to be the more naturally talented of the two. That's really all I meant.

Tuulia, as a student right now I see numerous situations where the student just has the natural talent in a certain area and therefore is not required to spend as much time preparing for evaluations. The same goes for Roger and Rafa in my opinion. Roger is naturally gifted as a tennis player and therefore he doesn't NEED to be as intense as Rafa in practice. Whether or not Roger actually is severely intense in his "real" practices we'll only have to assume, though.

And I'm certainly not saying that Roger doesn't work hard because it's impossible to achieve what he's done without discipline.

"If you asked Fed he'd say that in his younger years he may have been like that smart kid in school who can get good grades without studying as hard as the others but that if he'd kept that attitude he might have made top 10 but would never have had the kind of career he's had."

CWATC: makes sense to me. And yes, Rafa's book has some very matter-of-fact observations about Federer being a natural talent, someone who was "born to play tennis". And if I recall right, Rafa did say once in an interview that if he had the option of playing the same way Fed did (including the fluidity and the efficiency that enables him to stay injury-free etc), he would take it immediately.

At the same time, I'm always amused by these polarising narratives that cast Federer as "so naturally talented he doesn't even have to make an effort" and Rafa as having "not much natural talent but his mental strength and determination makes up for it". It seems to me that in different ways this is doing injustice to both players, and also setting them both to ridiculously high standards. Rafa may not be as skilled as Fed, but I'm sure 95 percent of the ATP players of the past decade would happily take whatever skills he does have. And to question the mental strength of someone who made 23 straight Slam semis is just bizarre.

"I have a feeling both alternates will see action this year."

Bite your tongue, tina. I've been looking forward to a WTF in which all the chosen ones were as close to being "ready to rumble" (the phrase I used before) as one can expect them to be at season's end mainly because the top 4,at least, have managed their post-USO period pretty sensibly.

I have to admit, though, that one of my favorite WTF's was the one in which Nalby had to be reached while on a post-season fishing vacation wih his pals in Argentina and flown in to replace someone.

Matt: I see your point. Rafa does seem less willing (or able) than many of the other players to turn down or turn off the intensity in the public practice sessions. Probably Toni's fault! :)

Jai, I'm totally with you on the silliness of not thinking Rafa has lots of natural talent. The guy's uncle was a famous athlete, for crying out loud. Clearly the genetic lottery has been kind to him.

And physically speaking at least, for players less blessed by the gods, look at Gilles Simon or poor little Ollie Rochus. It always seemed an unfair story to me how he used to kick Fed's ass when they were kids, but then Fed grew and he didn't . . . :(

Tuulia- yes, I was exaggerating - to make a point. :-) Thing is though, narratives tend to stick..whether they are 'fair' or even accurate. The Rafa = all heart effort/Fed = all talent/skills, and never the twain shall meet, though disproved time and time again, is the glue pot lazy journalists...and honestly, that seems to be about 80% of all tennis journalists...tend to go to time and time again. And when repeated so often, that sort of simplistic narrative thinking can even stick to fans of either or both, or FOOPS, who know better.

Fed practices very hard during his practice/training sessions. He practices less hard during tournaments. Rafa seems to practice pretty much full bore whenever he practices. Those different strategies seem to have stood each of them well. As CWATC said,' different strokes...'

Somewhere, Novak and Muzz and whoever is next on the hit parade have/is worked/working out practice strategies that work for them; which, in and of itself will tell us zero about much of anything.

G-night all...

"It always seemed an unfair story to me how he used to kick Fed's ass when they were kids, but then Fed grew and he didn't . . . :( "

LOL!

I'm off but one more drive-by point about "work": people usually think of on-court practice (or maybe gym workouts), but players spend so much time on things stretching and massage to prevent injury, hours and hours constantly and that's gotta be boring as heck and take discipline.

People write of Fed being relatively injury free, but seldom of the hours he puts in to ensure that's the case as much as possible. (Unlike Safin for example who was notorious for not stretching enough after matches, and claimed doubles matches didn't count so he didn't need to stretch after them :))

I found this recent Fed quote a bit poignant about the life of a tennis pro:

"I mean treatment is nice, but every single day, it becomes a bit tough at times. I don’t expect you to feel bad for me, I know it’s wonderful thing to have, but it becomes a bit just sort of that situation where just how much treatment can you have? And that’s why, I always make sure that even if sometimes I feel like I should have treatment, once in a while I’m like, you know what, I’m not going to have any. Because I can’t. Mentally it’s not good for me to do all these stretching, massages, exercises, whatever. I just think it’s important to keep the mind sort of fresh and ready."

Ruth—no offense to those here (I certainly should have included you in my encomiums, but I would have omitted too many others), and I do, and will, come back—it’s just too much, and often, too much of the same.

Well, the thing about comparing great players across eras is that there is more to it than the record, namely, what do you see?

Having seen everyone from Laver onward, I would say all tennis players, as a general matter, become great by doing one, or in rare cases, more than one, particular thing well.

It may be a fun pub game to try to rank anyone as the GOAT, but there is not as much debate, to my mind, when you break down the game a bit.

For example:

Best kick serve: Edberg
Best pure timing: Agassi (IMO, anyone who questions this really may not be watching tennis very closely)
Best pure touch: McEnroe

By the way, the last two comparisons require a knowledge of how McEnroe and Agassi actually played, this has nothing to do with their records. Agassi could vary the backswing of his forehand and backhand depending on the speed of shot to an extent that was truly extraordinary. He was sort of the "anti Lendl" in this respect. Lendl worked hard to make every shot as similar as possible. Agassi played an infinite number of backswings, long, short, in between. This is why his return of serve was so good. As for McEnroe, he bunted the ball around the court. Try playing like McEnroe sometime. You will find that without very, very good touch, you simply push too many balls with not enough power. McEnroe could put "just enough" power on his shots, and its pretty damn hard to be able to vary your touch with a straight backswing to do that.

Best feel for flat shots: Connors (everyone knows that flat shots penetrate the court better than spin shots, yet, almost all player, even good players, use spin to get margin for error. Everyone, that is, except Connors)

Best pure nerves: Sampras (Sampras played knowing he was going to hold serve every time, and as a result could play very relaxed on his opponents service games. It was not that Sampras had a great second serve, but the confidence with which he hit it.)

Best ability to have faith in the ability to run down shots: tie, Borg and Nadal.

However, the difference between the players I have illustrated, and Federer and Laver, was that Federer and Laver are the only two players I have seen who did not limit themselves to only "one" great skill. Both of them cold hit THE SHOT THAT WAS REQUIRED AT THE TIME -- I put that in all caps becuase it is extremely difficult to do, so difficult that most professionals do not even attempt to develop the ability to hit every shot, even though they have unlimited practice time.

By comparison, Federer has a far better serve, plus every shot that Laver had as well. Plus, Federer had clay court success in a "slow court" era. Laver had his clay court success when the overall rankings were dominated by "fast court" players. Look who Laver beat when he won the French, for example.

Whatever you think, you had better watch Federer while you still can. A player who plays like he does, with the ability to be consistent, comes around every thirty years or so, in my experiance, anyway.

Dunlop Maxply,

Thank you so much for that post. You wrote in one compact comment what hundreds of articles haven't grasped in all the years of Federer's career. Should Roger read it, he would feel vindicated and understood when he was trying to explain (most probably also to himself) why it took him so long, in comparison with other players, to start winning consistently.

As I've said for years to everyone who'd listened to me in each of his matches, including painful losses, he produces passages of those virtuous and blameless skills. The sprezzatura didn't come without effort and tears but it's there and that's why Federer's fans will follow him everywhere for as long as he feels he can play his intricate game.

Good afternoon,

Dunlop thanks soo much for your insightful comments.....always welcomed here at TW.

I would like to comment on what Matt had posted earlier regarding his comments on watching Roger and Rafa at their training sessions.I understand what Matt was saying.I too have watched Roger and Rafa at their training sessions on different surfaces.Roger is effortless in his stroke making quite like he is on court.I am not saying he dosent put 100% effort at training at all.Rafa on the other hand comes into a training session with a lot of intensity,again much like he is on court.At times I have felt with Rafa he stays too long on the court for a practice session.Though observing him over the years he wont change....thats just Rafa.

Good Morning Zenggi

Just got back in from having a wonderful pedicure....

Shravan,

You may want to have a look at TW's Site Rules (click on Moderator) - personal attacks etc are not allowed.

Zdravo *hi CL - you are right that Fish has got a great opportunity to get a scalp or two. Nothing to loose, nobody expects great things from him now in this tournament. As for match up with Nadal, it always seemed to me that his flat shots can not be good enough for Nadals heavy topspin. He gets to way to may balls and eventually Fish will miss or Rafa will hit a winner first. That one win was great for him in Cincy, but it is just that.

Nadal and Tsonga will be very very interesting to see!

Morning everyone. :)

Thanks, Pete. I like Fishie's attitude & approach. Also agree he has a decent shot against Rafa - he has a win, and he usually troubles Rafa at least a little. Then again isn't he carrying an injury?

If we have a surprise winner, I'd like it to be either Fish or Ferru. I feel like Ferru gets written off quite a bit, but he's done well at this tournament in the past & he could again. Partly depends on Nole who strikes me as a question mark at the moment with his ongoing shoulder troubles.

+1 to hoping all the top 8 will be there & able to play.

Good morning, AM (and Moderator) :)

Apologies, aussiemarg, but I've been scraping ice off my car for 15 minutes. Totally frozen I am. I need a cup of tea right now. I'll be back in a moment to talk about London and Sunday's matches.

Is the group picture already made? I wonder which one will be posted here. Trust Pete, zenggi! :)

I will add to your thoughts on players practice. I watched Novek many times live now, matches and practice. He is an amazing talent. The way he moves is the first thing that strikes you yo disbelief. He can get to many balls but also can control his shots when on full strech. He is using a full dimensions of the court but also full dimensions of his body with that intense streching. Simply amazing. Neverovatno!

Also his shot are so fluid from both wings, especially the backhand.
In my oppinion, after Federer

zenggi

I think you need more than a cup of tea....Eeek!

"Murray has...um...and unpleasant whingy on court personality??"

Murray's in-house journal has everything on his knee condition - it is a bipartite patella:

http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport1/hi/tennis/8704999.stm

It causes pain (& he says it has done since he was 16), particularly while sliding/bending;& needs management but should not be career threatening.

*sends special magic warming tea to zenggi*

We're not that cold yet but so much dreary fog and drizzle...ugh. Yesterday & Sunday were nice though, to be fair.

Zeljana

I have also watched Novak in practice o/seas and here in Australia

I love what he brings to the practice court.Also I have observed he also practices with humour as well even though he gives 100%.

Also his shot are so fluid from both wings, especially the backhand.
In my oppinion, after Federer, the most beautifull player to watch.

zenggi - in Serbia is cold as well. How I envy those down under, they have summer comming...

Zeljana

Just to let you know Ana looked "stunning" as she accompanied Adam Scott to the Gala Dinner for the Presidents Cup in Melbourne.Ana wore a beautiful black lace full length gown and her hair was tied back.Ana and Adam "stole the show".

K, just scanned the fallout next door. It's quite interesting, most of the disses sent my way yesterday happened to originate from an obviously butthurt segment of TW with a conspicuously common player preference. Maybe I missed it or my memory is failing me, but I don't remember them taking such umbrage when Tim begins calling fans of the said player's nemesis the same thing as I do a more general target audience, which, BTW, might be construed as even more personal than my own shtick. Oh yeah, but Tim's twice my age. That must be it. Right.

Plus why are people getting so uptight all of a sudden? I've been firing away only for the last 2 weeks. Before that I was barely even paying a visit. And one of 'em couldn't even tell I was telling an obvious joke!

Anyhoo, I've done some soul searching, and I can see why "kids" may not be such a term of endearment to some people. I could tone it down a little but... as a matter of principle, I cannot allow myself to be overtaken by a certified Fed KAD like Tim! In anything! No frigging way!

So I propose a happy medium. For every "kid" Tim utters, I'm allowed to utter 2. That way I can somehow make myself less obnoxious to some of the sensitive souls, but I still have the upper hand. And no, I won't keep an exact quota.

Santa better have something really nice for me this year.

"Indeed, nobody is objective and all are biased. All don't even try to be fair, though, and I think you do, and also manage it well as far as players are concerned."

"I don't post here much (despite being here before most of you were born), and I don't even visit that much (TW has outgrown me), but when I do, NP and msf make it well worthwhile (there are many others, but they are harder to find)."

Thx, Tuulia & Ross. And yes, whatever people might think of me, even some of my biggest detractors would admit that I know a thing or 2 about tennis, and when the other side makes a good point I acknowledge it and don't just brush it away like real KADs do.

It ain't easy being so perfect.

"It ain't easy being so perfect"

Classic one liner from NP..............

"Santa better have something really nice for me this year."

Are you softening towards Christmas, NP?

AM, it's hard even for moi to understand.

"Are you softening towards Christmas, NP?"

I hate X-mas except for the gift part, as long as I'm the recipient.

AM,

I also think that as Rafa gets older he has to be more careful not to overdo it in practice especially during tournaments, the body just doesn't recover as quickly and it's additional wear on the body as well but I'm sure he and his team know all these things. Also I believe he has cut down down on his training over the years.

Comparing Roger and Rafa, I think that it's also a matter of inherent confidence in ones self and ones game, which I believe Roger has more of than Rafa. Rafa is such a rhythm player, which has it's positives and negatives, that I think he feels he has to hit a lot of balls to really feel and believe he's properly prepared.

Rafa posted on facebook a pic from his last training session yesterday, the bicep's looking good:)

http://goo.gl/hIxDn

Little Wing

Well from what I have observed with Rafa at Rome and RG this year....I am afraid he has not lol!

I watched Rafa in Rome at every practice session and I was "worn out" let me tell you.