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The Rally: Czar and Czarina for a Day
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08/03/2011 - 4:49 PM
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Posted by Master Ace |
08/03/2011 at 05:26 PM |
I agree with Kamakshi on eliminating the on court coaching rule. They have it in Davis/Fed Cup but in the more important event, the Slams, coaches are not allowed. |
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Posted by Philip |
08/03/2011 at 05:36 PM |
Regarding shrieking, grunting, inhaling or exhaling -whatever you want to call the extra noise players make before, during and after they hit the ball, there was an interesting occurance at Wimbledon, this past July. Stephanie Dubois was serving to Andrea Petkovic and as Petkovic was preparing to return she would exhale and make a high pitched noise that sounded like she was saying 'out'. At one point Dubois thought someone had called her serve out and she let Petkovic's return go past without making a play for it, resulting in a point for Petkovic. Dubois thought she should have had a let, but the Umpire didn't know what she was talking about. Before this happened, I thought many times that someone had been calling her serves out so it was pretty obvious that Petkovic's utterance sounded like an out call, but the Umpire feigned ignorance rather than warn Petkovic to quiet down. I just thought that this story was a good example of how these extra noises can disrupt a match in subtle ways and be unfair to a shrieker's opponent. |
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Posted by fatboy |
08/03/2011 at 05:41 PM |
Steve, i really enjoy these rallies you have with Kamakshi.
it always seems a balance between improvement and tradition ... |
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Posted by Steve |
08/03/2011 at 05:51 PM |
thanks from both of us, fatboy |
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Posted by Lamont Cranston |
08/03/2011 at 06:08 PM |
Steven and Kamakshi KUDOS!
I been critical of both of you on the doping issue, so I must congratulate the both of you for making some serious remarks about the less than rigorous anti-doping efforts of the ITF. This kind of discussion by writers like you is a big step forward to keeping our sport clean!
Don't stop now, please! You've got to build momentum on this. |
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Posted by Corrie |
08/03/2011 at 06:27 PM |
Great discussion. I too am pleased to see you both taking the doping issue seriously. It's inadequate and unsatisfactory in tennis, which is why so many suspicions float around. It's so true that prevention is better than cure. The tennis authorities are very foolish to appear to sweep things under the carpet - it'll come back to bite them.
The two issues that might turn off casual TV viewers - which tennis surely needs to draw in - are slow play and screaming. (I certainly wouldn't call it grunting.)
Slow play to me is the worst, that and strategic MTOs are just the latest version of unfair gamesmanship, now that McEnroe type outbursts are out of fashion, and they should be penalised. Increasing your time between points, or screaming, at times when the action is getting crucial is also gamesmanship. |
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Posted by Michele |
08/03/2011 at 06:30 PM |
I've learned to live with a lot of what bothers me but I just cannot abide the towel fixation. It drives me nuts.
It's easy to fix. Tell them they can't do it between points. Watching players point their fingers at ball kids (this can look downright menacing!), towel off and then throw it back without even looking where they throw it is just embarrassing for the sport.
Plus, this also speeds up the pace, thereby eliminating the need for a shot clock. |
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Posted by Philly V. |
08/03/2011 at 06:46 PM |
Steve,
Where does Kamakashi work? I like this dude, you guys should steal him from wherever he currently works and get him onboard the WINNER-MOBILE(tennis.com) |
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Posted by Legoboy |
08/03/2011 at 07:40 PM |
Few Thoughts....
Towels - I agree, the manner with which they point-use-toss back is less than attractive to viewers, and it just has this air of something unpleasant. I say allow the towels, allow the use of them between points, but go get it yourself and you damn well better be no the line for the next serve.
Time between points - Add a couple extra seconds if need be, but enforce it...and do it from the start of the match, not 2 hours in once the person has gotten used to it.
Lets - Why should you get to go again if your ball touches the net and goes in, but not out? I say u either play it as it is, (play the net cords on serves regardless) or you replay the point when it touches the net on serve, in or out...why have a double standard?
I've never heard about the no warm-up idea till you mentioned it...sounds terrible to me. It certainly won't improve any aspect of watchings.
- viewers use this time to get find out about the players, their last match-ups ets....
- advertising gets a bit of time as well
- players get to be ready to play their best.
(If you didn't have the warm up, the first 3-4 games would become irrelevant, and not really determine the outcome, someone could play better once they got used to the conditions)
Grunting - I don't love it...but I don't care...u begin to block it out. (though it's true it probably doesn't attract new people to the sport)
Thanks! I often get bored halfway through these articles, this one was excellent! |
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Posted by JAG |
08/03/2011 at 09:15 PM |
Everytime I read these, I grin a little thinking, Steve has a crush on Kamakshi...:) |
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Posted by BigTex |
08/03/2011 at 09:16 PM |
I couldn't stand the idea of it in the past but I now think the no "let call" rule is a great idea. It would be big rule change but something we could all get used to fast. |
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Posted by Mystery |
08/03/2011 at 09:18 PM |
I think the doping issue, with testing and suspending becoming ever more shady in tennis, is starting to look like the Tour De France in the 90's. It took them 15 years to take it seriously instead of sweeping it under the carpet (which is what tennis does now) and now cycling is getting a little more cred. That we don't know who gets tested and when, as well as learning that players can serve silent suspensions without news ever getting to the media (and how many TOP players have may have served suspensions under the cloud of injury in the last few years???! we simply don't know any more) makes fans very wary. |
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Posted by Kamakshi |
08/03/2011 at 10:01 PM |
Hi Mystery,
Players cannot serve silent suspensions... All suspensions have to be announced, only exonerations are not. And the rules have changed since Agassi's test so exonerations are much more difficult.
I suppose it might be possible to do it secretly outside the program but firstly, then why test in the first place, and secondly, the ITF has important relationships with the IOC and WADA which I don't think they would risk by breaking the Code like that. |
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Posted by Tennis Mom |
08/03/2011 at 10:11 PM |
Kudos Tignor and Tandon! In Junior tennis the "grunters" and "screamers" are trying to win dirty. Thanks for saying it is wrong and thanks to Prince for saying they will not give endorsements to "dirty" winners.
(About towels: My daughter just played an event in Florida and actually needed to towel off between every point, no kidding. Being able to point at a ball girl to run the towel to her would have been totally cool.)
I really appreciate your discussion about ending doping in tennis.
No good parent can suggest to their child that they pursue a sport that demands their child take liver-injuring drugs. |
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Posted by Michele |
08/03/2011 at 10:58 PM |
I'm sorry but I don't buy the "need" to towel off after every point. What exactly happens if you don't? You can't play? It's a habit that would be hard to break but let's not pretend your game depends on it. Players would learn to deal with it. It's not like the concept of sweating is a product of the open era.
You can towel off between games but every point? It's excessive and unnecessary. It's one of the easiest changes to make on this list and it could dramatically alter and improve the game. |
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Posted by Geemom |
08/03/2011 at 11:28 PM |
Enforce the time limits
Stop the grunting
No coaching
Test everybody frequently even when they say they are out sick
And move the players boxes! If family, coaches and friends were moved up away from the court we would eliminate coaching and improve the popularity of the the players and tennis in general. There are some players that I do not like at all because of the the behavior of the people in the box. One look of Yuri or Murray and Novak' s mom is enough for me to hope the other guy wins. |
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Posted by Christopher |
08/03/2011 at 11:55 PM |
I disagree with Steve about on-court coaching, to which I'm completely opposed, but agree with most of the rest of these. A lot of it is just enforcing existing rules more consistently and strictly.
The one single rule I would change in all of tennis at all levels of play is (with Legoboy above)...eliminate the service let. It's a pointless waste of time. Just play a net cord on the serve like any other net cord: if it's in the serve is good and you continue the point. |
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Posted by Sherlock |
08/04/2011 at 12:02 AM |
I'm with Kamakshi, Michele, and Legoboy. The toweling issue is ridiculous. It's become a needless habit for many players, and the way the ballkids are treated is indeed embarrassing. If you're sweating that much, they make these things called sweatbands that have worked for quite a while. :)
I don't mind slow play at all. I enjoy the tension buildup. But if they want to increase the limit and enforce it, I'd be ok with that. For me, the hit and miss enforcement is much more annoying than the slow play itself.
Why not just allow a time-out for each player? They could be awarded one apiece after every 2 sets, or something like that? You can use it whenever you want, as long as it's before you serve, for medical or any other reason.
Steve, I love you man, but on-court coaching? Tut, tut. :) |
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Posted by low4.0player |
08/04/2011 at 12:10 AM |
No coaching ever outside of team competitions.
Grunting should be handled under the hinderance rule. Unfortunately it's gotten worse. Locally we have a player who has a two-part grunt which is comically loud and completely unrelated to effort. Players three courts away who don't know her are often startled by the sound. This should not be tolerated. (Sorry Vica.)
Chair umpire must enforce the time rules, but please, no shot clock.
I live in the South and sweat buckets, so I understand the need for going to the towel, but it must take place w/in the standard time limit. Ball kids should NEVER be allowed to handle a players towel, so it would be tougher to use the towel as a stall. (Let's not even talk about the sanitary aspects of the ball kids handling those towels--their parents must be horrified.) While we're at it, ball kids should never handle the players' rackets, or even those plastic bags from the stinger. |
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Posted by low4.0player |
08/04/2011 at 12:18 AM |
10-point tiebreak in lieu of 3rd set. Arrggghhh! Hate it. I fear we're going to lose the 3rd set to this abomination. I understand that in amateur tournaments the tournament director is under a lot of pressure to keep things moving and get the matches in, but the tournament policy should never start out with the match tiebreak. It should only be considered if weather has severely impacted the schedule. Personally, I'd prefer something like demi-sets to 4 games, rather than a match tiebreak.
Not much of a fan of no-add scoring either. It invites luck onto the court in too big a way. In fact, one of the most interesting things about tennis is the deuce/add scoring. There's always a chance. A chance for redemption and for the big choke. |
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Posted by Sen no Rikyu |
08/04/2011 at 12:30 AM |
Kamakashi,
I'm sorry to point out that you are incorrect on silent suspensions.
I've e-mailed the ITF about this and their response was an excerpt from the ITF's anti-doping code:
"P.3 The ITF shall use its reasonable endeavours to ensure that Persons under its control do not publicly identify Participants whose Samples have resulted in Adverse Analytical Findings or Atypical Findings, or who have a Provisional Suspension imposed on them, or are alleged to have committed an Anti-Doping Rule Violation under this Programme, unless and until an Anti-Doping Tribunal has determined that an Anti-Doping Rule Violation has been committed, and/or the Anti-Doping Rule Violation has been admitted."
When I asked whether any players had served provisional or voluntary suspension for which no public announcement was made the ITF stated that it "does not comment on ongoing cases, or previous cases that have resulted in no Anti-Doping Rule Violation."
Therefore, a player can accept a "voluntary/provisional" suspension prior to a hearing and if the hearing clears the player of any violation then nothing is announced. Thus, "silent" suspension are a reality.
Ask the ITF yourself, if you don't believe me. |
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Posted by VH1 |
08/04/2011 at 12:31 AM |
I hate the grunting but implementing and enforcing a rule is almost impossible. No coaching, full stop. The toweling issue goes away enforcing the time limits but no shot clock as there's a number of undesirable complications.
I do think the MTOs have become just another tool to disrupt a player that is "in the zone" so my suggestion would be to allow MTO's without penalties only at the end of sets. Treatment can be allowed during changeovers but without going over the alloted time (they do that today). If a player requires an MTO in the middle of a set the whole next game would be forfeited. It might seem a bit excessive but if you are in need of an MTO you should be in big trouble anyway so a game shouldn't make that big of a difference. The reason behind forfeiting the next game as opposed to the game that is being played when the MTO is called is to prevent a player from calling it when down 40-0 with the other player serving. Players in top shape should not be penalized by allowing unfit players to call the trainer to get some rest and massages. |
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Posted by low4.0player |
08/04/2011 at 12:48 AM |
VH1, spot on re. the MTOs. That sounds like a great way to handle the issue. I especially like the next game penalty idea.
Clearly some of you folks live in areas with a dry climate. My buddies and I are usually sopping after a couple of games, and sweatbands can only do so much. (I do mean literally soaked through with sweat--nothing dry anywhere.) |
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Posted by Ash |
08/04/2011 at 03:46 AM |
Any player claiming an injury and calling for the trainer or doctor may do so, but after the match, that player will be subject to an MRI scan and a medical evaluation to ascertain that there has actually been an injury.
The tournament could pick a nearby medical facility for this purpose ahead of a tournament.
Recently, Jankovic, Bartoli, Kerber and others have used the 'injury' time out to slow a match and break their opponent's groove. This must stop.
Also, exhaling lightly is all right. Any sound that could keep the opponent from hearing the ball hitting the opponent's strings should be disallowed. Each infraction would be greeted by a point deduction. Ten shrieks, groans, moans or yelps DURING a point and the set shall end, going to the presumably silent opponent. Something on that order would stop Azarenka, Schiavone, Sharapova and Serena in their tracks. They do not shriek, grunt, rut or do anything of the kind during practice. It is intimidation and distraction...CHEATING. |
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Posted by Corrie |
08/04/2011 at 05:44 AM |
I'm with everyone else saying, No Coaching. I'm a little surprised at Steve's endorsement of it. Surely the essence of tennis is individual performance based on that individual's ability to work out how to win on the court and then do it - execute, as Agasssi would say. They can have input from coaches beforehand but the challenge of tennis is that it should be a lonely endeavour once you're out there. |
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Posted by QueenRafa |
08/04/2011 at 06:58 AM |
With the time limit between points, as soon as you start saying don't have a stop clock because of slow ball kids etc. you are admitting that it's impractical to have exactly 20 or 25 secs between points because there are soooooo many variables; which is why I suspect the umpires ignore it most of the time and only give a warning just to please the moaning minnies who go on and on about it.
The time limit was introduced during the 80s to stop players wasting time by arguing with umpire and interacting with the crowd - i.e Nastase using an umbrella from the crowd to play to prove that it's raining and the match to be called off or McEnroe arguing with the umpire or doing his shoe laces in the middle of a game. Players don't do that anymore so I don't see what all the fuss is about if they take 25 or 30 secs between serves.
I'd be interested to know if they did a test run under various circumstances just to see what the maximum number of secs could reasonably elapse between points. |
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Posted by Chams |
08/04/2011 at 08:11 AM |
Good and intereting article for discussion.
Grunting and shrieking are different to me. A low grunt does not bother the ears so much (lower decibel) as the loud, long, finger nail blackboard shrieking!
I would like to see the coaching stopped. If it continues it should be across the board allowing ATP use as well.
The towel off no problem. I have seen the players soaked with sweat. As a viewer it builds to the drama while anticipating the next shot.
Dope testing? Unclear, hidden and seems subjective.
MTO comes across as pure gamesmanship, should be reviewed.
Practice warm-up? Acceptable.
This may not fall under tennis rules but is one of my pet peeves. Commentators to stop talk while match play is in progress. This adds no value as they are not discussing the actual match. It is usually gossip talk or very subjective reporting. This is distracting, disturbing and rude. If the commentators stop talking during match play then maybe the viewer can stop hearing the constant repeats of the same old tired stories. Maybe it would force the commentators to be informative, objective and refreshing.
As a viewer there are plenty of moments hitting the "mute" to avoid hearing the commentators and the shrieking. This takes away from the enjoyment of watching a tennis match for me. |
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Posted by QueenRafa |
08/04/2011 at 08:21 AM |
For overuse of towels, blame Rusedski. He started it he says to slow himself down because he just never stopped to take a breath. |
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Posted by Interpol09 |
08/04/2011 at 08:39 AM |
I completely agree with Geemom about the player/coaches box rule. I honestly see no need for it whatsoever. It's incredibly annoying to see players after EVERY POINT stare at their team for encouragement and tips, if not full-on coaching.
Also, the entourage seems to have grown in recent years. Granted, I've only been watching tennis with real interest for less than a decade, but it felt like the players would only have their parents and coach in there. Now we've got family reunions going on in the stands. Plus significant others, coaches, physios, agents, random person who has a fleeting tie to the player, celebrity in town who didn't want to pay for a ticket... it's just gotten absurd. |
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Posted by MarkfromVT |
08/04/2011 at 09:03 AM |
No coaching allowed. Period. To enforce this, coaches for both players should be required to sit in the same small box, preferably next to each other, and they can just police themselves (or not; if they each conspire to coach, the umpire can easily see it). Also, seating both players' coaches next to each other will make those annoying and ubiquituous TV camera shots of their respective reactions more interesting.
I would include a small clock, maybe right under the serve speed readout so that everyone can see the time elapsing between points. Imagine the stirring in the crowd during a tight match between Rafa and Novak when Rafa is still towelling off with 7 seconds to go before he forfeits a point? relying on the umpire to enforce the time rule is way too subjective.
Hold that thought--I'm for forbidding the towels as well. Remember Mary Pierce (first prize: Most Boring Player To Watch, Ever), gently wiping down first one arm, then the other, then her face, then fixing her hair, and on and on, between every point? Hmm...maybe I'll hold onto that image for a few minutes. |
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Posted by skip1515 |
08/04/2011 at 09:52 AM |
Regarding grunting/shrieking: it's one thing at the tour level, where linesjudges call the ball. It's another thing entirely in matches contested by the other 99.999% of the world's players: how in the world can I be expected to differentiate, mid-point, between your grunt or shriek and an Out! call?
While it may be a case of Old Fartism, I am glad I'm not playing sanctioned tournaments and having to decide whether or not to warn an opponent that I'll call the referee if they don't stop grunting and throwing me off by making me wonder if my shot was in or not. Sheesh, life's already got enough decisions. |
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Posted by Leemur |
08/04/2011 at 10:01 AM |
Hey Steve,
One of your statements gave me an idea for one of your Playing Ball columns. How about you play a 5-setter sometime with one of your homies and write it up.
I've sometimes wondered how we club-players would hold up. I'm 46, a 4.5 and in pretty good shape, and I'm pretty trashed at the end of a comepetetive 3 setter -- sometimes for a few days.
Just a thought. We don't want you to hurt yourself, of course, just for our enlightenment. |
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Posted by md |
08/04/2011 at 10:17 AM |
My five
1. No on court coaching. This includes coaching from the stands. Kick out the supporters if necessary. Uncle Toni et al can watch the match on television.
2. No more than 15 seconds between points. Takes far too long to watch a match now. Tedious even for committed tennis fans.
3. No injury timeouts. If a player is too injured to play that is his/her tough luck.
4. Proper transparent anti doping rules. That includes keeping samples for a ten year period. Massive fines, proportionate to the income of the player.
5. Best of five set finals in all Masters Series Events. Fans are being robbed of classic matches. Federer v Nadal Rome 2006 perhaps greatest clay court match ever played.
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Posted by gwll |
08/04/2011 at 10:34 AM |
If you want to change anything; change the commentators from talking to much about a players.
they act as physics only after a player have played. Do they go back and listen to what they have said. When a player is playing good they on that player side; when the player starts to make mistakes they jump to the other player and vice versa during the same game. you're being a hypocrite. Also stop talking so loud so we can enjoy the game. |
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Posted by Wayne |
08/04/2011 at 10:38 AM |
For every 3-minute injury time, it costs one point for the player who is taking, and maximum 6 minutes, no more (any time less than 3 minutes counting as 3 minutes). |
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Posted by Just a Lurker |
08/04/2011 at 10:47 AM |
Great discussion Steve and Kamakshi.
Philly V : Kamakshi is a girl's (woman's name).
What happened to the practice of using 'wrist bands' for wiping off the excessive sweat (Graf used to famously do that).
Regarding Grunting/Shreiking, not sure who is going to call the players 'out', remember players can complain against 'grunting' and the authorities have no choice but to take action but it has become an epidemic that the 'non-grunting' players are a minority in today's game as compared to the early 90's and most of them are not as dynamic as Navratilova to come out and complain. Over the years, grunting has transformed into shrieking and who knows what's going to happen in decade as all the upcoming players look up to the current players as their models. It is easy to envision a day where the audience are given 'ear plugs' or 'sound toning option' (for TV) than the higher authorities taking any action on the players.
Against on court coaching as tennis is not just about playing but excutuing the right move at the right time which the player has to learn to figure out on his/her own. But if you are allowing on court coaching, do it for both WTA and ATP, not just for women players. To me. that's the ultimate 'sexism' in sports.
The less we talk about drug testing the better we feel about the sport.
Medical time outs have become a farce just like the excessive 'towelling' and time between points
To be honest, not expecting any changes in any of the above. |
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Posted by Slick |
08/04/2011 at 10:48 AM |
No rule change in the world is ever gonna stop the Nadal victory/GOAT train - that's ominous. |
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Posted by low4.0player |
08/04/2011 at 10:48 AM |
skip1515, that's where the hinderance rule comes in for the other 99.99% of us players. If the shrieking/grunting doesn't bother you then it's not a hinderance. If it's so bad that it actually impedes your play you do have recourse to warn the opponent that he is hindering. If he keeps it up you have the right to claim a hinderance, and thus a point.
I do have to say that in the spirit of "The Code" it would be wrong to use the hinderance rule to game an opponent. If the shrieking doesn't bother you then just let it go.
I regularly play with a guy who talks during points. He's not trying to disrupt (and can't help it, I think), but it can be distracting. If it were tournament play I'd give him a hinderance warning if it happened more than a couple of times.
As for the other 00.01% of the players (the tours), I think the WTA and ATP need to move the players toward curbing the behavior (for the public, if nothing else), but within a match it would be up to a player to ask the chair to warn an opponent. The chair should not ask a grunter to stop w/out a complaint from the other player, unless it's just so out of hand (de Brito) that it violates the spirit of the game.
My 2¢. |
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Posted by Humanzee |
08/04/2011 at 10:50 AM |
1. The shriekers are awful and need to be stopped. Nothing-- and I mean nothing-- can make me vote for a shrieker. I was thrilled that Kvitova beat Azarenka and Sharapova at Wimbledon--a shrieker double-knock out! It may be a conspiracy theory, but I have a strong suspicion that the Women's Tennis Association pressures the media to downplay the issue for fear that it may become a big problem for the women's game. I'm guessing a simple survey would reveal that there are many like me-- people for whom shrieking is an automatic turn off. The point about them not doing it in practice is an excellent one. I mean, the crowd has to be quiet during points but the player can scream their head off? Seems like a contradiction. Perhaps through public pressure, if the games' governing body won't do anything: we can all start shrieking during the matches... that would get the point across.
2. The towel-toss issue is the most interesting discussion on here. I never thought about it myself, but I find the arguments pretty convincing that it is demeaning to the ball kids. Fascinating that so many readers are sensitive to this-- it definitely functions as a ritual of power for the players.
3. Anti-doping has to be enforced. I've never been sympathetic to the players' complaints about the imposition. Cheating happens regularly-- who knows how many incidents occur for every Odesnik that is stupid enough to caught in an airport.
4. I'm not in favor of best of 5 set matches for the men in grand slams except in semis and the final. The matches take too long and unless you're really invested in the outcome (that is, the players), they feel like a time waste much of the time. An interesting statistical analysis would include examining how many (%) matches (based on the score) had a different outcome than they would have if they were only 3 sets long. Men that have long matches early in a slam are virtually assured of elimination, usually in the next round, because they're too tired to play. Five set men's tennis also means you'll never see the top players play doubles.
5. And my final rule change: Marion Bartoli should be forcibly medicated (and her ridiculous IQ claim subject to testing) |
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Posted by pica |
08/04/2011 at 10:54 AM |
I agree that the shot clock would be totally unworkable, with the randomness of ball kids etc. Players should be allowed to redo a bad toss, deal with the sun, recover an extra 10 seconds after a 30-shot rally. I think we all want the game played faster, but we don't want players literally having to rush to the line any more than we'd want a shot clock in baseball or golf or other sports played at their own pace.
I think banning towels from the baseline is a great suggestion, let the players wear sweatbands or wipe on their shirts -- these can be changed at every changeover, anyway. If the towels stay, this idea of not allowing the ballkids to handle them is terrible -- if the players had to fetch their own towels, things would *really* slow down.
The game is supposed to be played at the pace of the server -- the receiver toweling off is gamesmanship. Players like Sharapova or Bartoli who have these rituals where they face away from the court, dance around and refocus ... sorry, stop it. If there's no towel there, then the umpire can give them a warning just for walking to the back wall, because there'd be no reason.
That plus slightly more diligent enforcement of the existing rules should speed things up enough. Call out Novak on the ball-bouncing more often.
Steve's idea that fines being more practical to address shriek/grunting applies here, too. Players should still get warnings and then lose points for egregious or repeated shrieking and slow play, but supplementing that with fines is also good, and those are a lot easier to administer because they don't further clog the umpire's headspace during the match. |
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Posted by london |
08/04/2011 at 11:18 AM |
The on-court coaching rule has caused problem for the WTA in my opinion especially for the top players. I 2009, Dinara Safina would get coaching in the regular tour, but when it came to the majors, she would be left looking at her coach because she couldn't figure out what to do. The French Open final and the US Open 2009 is a prime example of this. |
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Posted by london |
08/04/2011 at 11:21 AM |
This can be applied to Caroline Wozniacki as well. She rely's to Piotr during the regular tour to give her tactics, and then the majors come and when her opponent is playing well, she is left clueless as to what to do. It's an epidemic. |
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Posted by low4.0player |
08/04/2011 at 11:23 AM |
Gosh, there are a lot of dry climate folks here. Where I live, you've got to be able to towel off. Maybe not between every point, but certainly more often than every other game. I wear a wristband and a hat to help keep sweat out of my eyes, but they're just not enough. (I keep something like a washcloth in my pocket on really humid days.)
That said, using the towel still has to happen within the allowed time, and at the server's pace, as pica reminds us. So I say, let the players go to the towel without the help of the ball kids, but if it's not timely and if it slows the server they get a warning and then a penalty.
----
Brief story to illustrate how sweaty we can get here in the South. I once played a tournament match. I took the ball out of my pocket for a 2nd serve. I was sure the serve was in, but my opponent called it out, based upon the water mark left by the ball, which had been in my pocket, absorbing sweat. Alas, a double fault.
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Posted by Randomness |
08/04/2011 at 11:26 AM |
I think the problem with shrieking/screaming is that currently there's really no rule directly addressing it at all. So right now it's not "wrong" to do it, and players have taken it to extremes. Azarenka recently compared her screaming to snoring, saying it's something she can't control, which is absurd. Putting in a rule, even a somewhat vague one like "player shall not make excessive noise during play," would help send the message that this behavior is not acceptable.
As for enforcement, I'm of the opinion that it would actually be fairly easy. It's not like it's something you can do privately. The screamer has to do it in front of everybody, and if everybody knows it's against the rules, there will be tremendous social pressure on the screamers. And maybe we can look at how the NFL is dealing with hits to the head. The official can call a penalty during the match if he sees fit, but the real hammer is the review after the match where hefty fines can be levied. The enforcement doesn't need to be comprehensive or even very uniform; it just needs to create enough fear in the players that they will think twice about shrieking like a banshee in the match. And since the lower levels of tennis more or less look up to the pro tours for leadership, it should help at those levels as well. |
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Posted by QueenRafa |
08/04/2011 at 11:28 AM |
Posted by md 08/04/2011 at 10:17 AM
My five
2. No more than 15 seconds between points. Takes far too long to watch a match now. Tedious even for committed tennis fans.
3. No injury timeouts. If a player is too injured to play that is his/her tough luck.
5. Best of five set finals in all Masters Series Events. Fans are being robbed of classic matches. Federer v Nadal Rome 2006 perhaps greatest clay court match ever played.
md, I'll add one more for you:
Get robots to replace humans as players. |
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Posted by jhurwi |
08/04/2011 at 11:34 AM |
Humanzee: Re the outcome of best-of-5-set vs best-of-3-set matches:
I've followed this question in a number of Grand Slams, though I can't cite any analysis by true statisticians.(I'm sure someone must have done it). Obviously, all matches that end in 4 sets go to the player who would have won in best-of-3, so the only question is the matches that go to 5 sets.
In the tournaments where I've done calculations, I've found that no more than 20% (1 out of 5) of all men's matches go to 5 sets, and the 5th set is won about half the time by the player who was trailing at the end of 3 sets. So the best-of-5-set format probably only makes a difference in 10% or less of all cases. But of course those are some of the most dramatic ones, when they involve a top player. |
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Posted by Rachel, Richmond, VA |
08/04/2011 at 11:37 AM |
Coaching is fine at all events except Masters and Slams. Game planning should go on during practices before the match not during. It is up to the players to execute the plan and make adjustments during the match, not the coach. This way tactically strong players are created and not tennis playing machines who need help stringing together points at a pro level. Tennis is tactical, mental and physical; the best players are sound in all 3 areas without their coach hand holding throughout a tournament.
I like the addition of AD points in doubles, points can happen so fast in doubles, just seems fait to give the serving team a bit of a chance to no see their efforts in the game be wiped away by 1 point.
In singles, servers should "get on with it" quickly, that rule should be better enforced.
I do think off court coaching is fine during extended rain delays. |
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Posted by QueenRafa |
08/04/2011 at 11:38 AM |
It doesn't bother me at all whether coaching is allowed during play or not and I don't understand why some people think it's wrong to have an MTO. I just find it ridiculous that if the match is stopped overnight or any length of time because of the weather or bad light, the players are free to consult whoever they like including coaches, physios and doctors. Why don't they seal them off with officials guarding them until the match resumes if it was so important that they are not coached during a match. |
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Posted by Nam1 |
08/04/2011 at 12:03 PM |
This is a great article by Steve and Kamakshi (who is a woman, BTW) :))
here's my take:
1) No coaching
2) Enforce the 20 second rule strictly, use progressive discipline ie, one warning, next time it's a point penalty.
3) Let the players have the towel if they want it but they should have to get it themselves, the ball kids are called BALL kids, not TOWEL kids.
4) Hate the shrieking but have no idea what can be done. How would you decide what is an appropriate decibel level?
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Posted by Nam1 |
08/04/2011 at 12:03 PM |
This is a great article by Steve and Kamakshi (who is a woman, BTW) :))
here's my take:
1) No coaching
2) Enforce the 20 second rule strictly, use progressive discipline ie, one warning, next time it's a point penalty.
3) Let the players have the towel if they want it but they should have to get it themselves, the ball kids are called BALL kids, not TOWEL kids.
4) Hate the shrieking but have no idea what can be done. How would you decide what is an appropriate decibel level?
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Posted by Nam1 |
08/04/2011 at 12:04 PM |
ooops, sorry for double post. |
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Posted by Michele |
08/04/2011 at 12:18 PM |
To low4.0player: I can assure you that living/playing in the often-humid summer in NYC produces plenty of sweat!
I still think you can limit the towel to between games and be just fine. That way players would have the time to handle the towels themselves. Watching those poor kids stand there with a towel like some child servant does not reflect well on the players, especially the men. Makes them look namby-pamby. |
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Posted by Nam1 |
08/04/2011 at 12:25 PM |
"Watching those poor kids stand there with a towel like some child servant does not reflect well on the players, especially the men. Makes them look namby-pamby."
Well, I am not sure that anyone cares that they look namby pamby but I agree that the kids should not have to carry them;
Let the players get it themselves if they need it and they should be able to do it within the 20 second time as per the rules.
If they go over the 20 seconds, warn them, then a point penalty. I guarantee that will stop them from going for the towel after every point! |
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Posted by Wendy |
08/04/2011 at 12:28 PM |
Shrieking/grunting: I saw Azarenka play doubles (with Maria Kirilenko) last week at Stanford. Notably, there were several points in which Azarenka hit the ball and didn't shriek, so maybe it's not as uncontrollable as snoring (to use Vika's own analogy).
While I'm no fan of Azarenka's shrieking I heard a noise I found even more annoying while watching a re-broadcast of Marcel Granollers' victory over Fernando Verdasco in Gstaad. Granollers' grunting may be the loudest and most annoying on the men's tour. Anyone else have thoughts on this one?
I agree that no-ad scoring in doubles makes the game (and doubles is so fast already) feel kind of speedy and a little unfair.
Interesting points people have made that some WTA players grow accustomed to on-court coaching during non-major events and find themselves rudderless at the majors when they have to do their own thinking. |
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Posted by Rob_S |
08/04/2011 at 12:35 PM |
Dislike the towel ritual VERY much. Serve an ace and towel off? Like others have suggested: sweatbands! Hell, even sponsors could get in on it: you can change sweatbands every changeover and have a different sponsor name each time (I'm employing the 'money talks' trope).
Coaching is an interesting thing. It seems as if, in recent years, the players' teams are trying VERY hard to thwart the no-coaching rule. I don't believe they're going to stop. Perhaps it's time to institute it, but in a mitigated fashion. Tennis is so often equated to boxing, why not mimic a component of the sport: coaching on changeovers ONLY with strict enforcement the rest of the time -- like, point/game penalties if you even dare to coach outside the appointed times.
And the noise. Oh, the noise. I mean, it's one thing to go diving into the flower boxes to retrieve a heavy-angled crosscourt shot and it's another to scream while hitting a drop shot. I think it's the regular perpetrators that need disciplining in this area. To use Kvitova vs. Azarenka and Sharapova again -- the strangest thing was the near-silence on Petra's side, and the jet-engine decibel equivalent on the other. That is, the noisiness became extremely noticeable due to the marked imbalance of sound. Even my favorite WTA player, Schiavone, needs to get the ah-HYAHH! (forehand) and ah-HEEE! (backhand) under control. I admit, there's something charming about the way she does it (must be the Italian thing), but to casual tennis observers, it generates more giggles than admiration of athletics. |
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Posted by CajunGuy |
08/04/2011 at 12:38 PM |
It's comical to read all the comments against shrieking when every major tennis match has HUGE on-court microphones whose main purpose is to amplify the shrieking noise.
Do you really believe that a racket hitting a ball produces a huge resounding "THUD" which echoes throughout the stands? Do you really believe that players do not shriek at all in practice but only do it on the show courts? My friend, you're witnessing the magic of sound amplification.
If the TV networks don't want to hear as much shrieking, use smaller on-court microphones. It's that simple. |
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Posted by Shekhar |
08/04/2011 at 12:47 PM |
Nice article!
I just have one suggestion regarding the time taken by players between points. There is a similar time control in the game of chess. Each player is allotted a certain amount of time which can be calibrated from the law of averages. The player is free to use his or her time from the allotted quota. In in the game of chess if a player exceeds the allotted time, then he or she forfeits the game. We can use the same logic in the game of tennis. The time during the play will not be counted.
Hope this helps
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Posted by ebellster |
08/04/2011 at 12:49 PM |
If shrieking/grunting hurts the sport so badly in the eyes of "ordinary viewers" then how does one explain the popularity of Maria Sharapova or Monica Seles with those same non-tennis people? None of the guys in my office are tennis fans, but I can almost guarantee you that 90% of them know who Maria Sharapova is...and I seriously doubt they care if she grunts or not. |
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Posted by Adam Moran |
08/04/2011 at 12:55 PM |
Honestly I have no idea why the grunting or "shrieking" bothers people so much. To be honest the first tennis match I watched on tv was one with Maria Sharapova playing and it didn't bother me at all and I've been a fan of her ever since. I actually find it weird when there is no grunting in a match because I'm so used to it now watching Maria play all the time. One rule I would like to see changed is the need to have the stadium be completely silent all the time. I find this is a stupid rule that very few other sports have. In other sports athletes thrive on the noise from the crowd. They don't tell them to shut up like they do in tennis |
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Posted by alvin |
08/04/2011 at 12:57 PM |
So the players should stop grunting because the viewers abhor it. Absurd. There are players who grunt and those who do not. Why do we always ask others to alter what they do in order to please us? Can't we do the accomodation? And why must the player who works his/her behind off to reach the highest level have to make that accomodation if it's part of their make up? There is grunting in other sports and more distracting indulgencies which we live with. The grunting/shrieking problem is vastly overblown. It might also be gender bias. |
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Posted by mamiejane |
08/04/2011 at 12:58 PM |
My thoughts:
1. No shrieking...goes into effect immediately in the juniors; in a year in the regular tournaments (so players can adjust...I'm not sure Maria Sharapova can play without the ritual)
2. Women play five sets in slams...otherwise, how are they different from any other tournament. There is no reason (other than television trying to control time) for women to play shorter matches...also, goes into effect in a year.
3. Allow 30 seconds between points, players have to retrieve their own towels. We shouldn't be so ADD as a culture that we can't wait 30 seconds but the time limit should be rigorously enforced.
4. Deduct a point or even two for "medical" time outs...that way they won't be used strategically. Also, allow a bathroom break after the third set and other breaks with a point deduction.
5. No coaching. |
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Posted by low4.0player |
08/04/2011 at 01:12 PM |
Michele, I do understand that NYC can get very humid. However, I still need my towel within games. (Maybe you just glow delicately, as we say down here.)
alvin, there may be a gender bias, but one maybe caused by physiology, not sexism. The men tend to grunt in a lower register, which is somehow less annoying and less distracting.
Why is it a big deal? The shrieking of some of the worse offenders can impact the play of the opponent. That, at least according to the spirit of the game, is wrong. |
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Posted by low4.0player |
08/04/2011 at 01:19 PM |
Michele, I understand that it does get really humid in NYC, but I still need my towel w/in games. (Maybe you just glow delicately, as we say down here.)
alvin, the gender bias is just that, based upon gender, not sexism. Simply put, men grunt in a lower register, so it's less annoying. Fair? Probably not.
Why does it matter? The Code and the spirit of fair play in tennis. Silence, or even contained grunting, does not hinder an opponent, but excessive noise can. (Obviously it's up to the "injured" player to call the hinderance. As they say, no harm, no foul.) |
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Posted by low4.0player |
08/04/2011 at 01:19 PM |
Sorry about the repeated post. The 1st seemed to vanish. |
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Posted by Euphemism |
08/04/2011 at 01:25 PM |
Lord, I hate talk of on-court coaching. Whenever I try to explain to my friends why I love tennis so much, one of the things I try to impress on them is the fascinating mental aspect of it all - how, at the top level, the brain is more important than the arm. For instance, can you still win when you muffed a smash at set point? Can you recalibrate your strategy and go to Plan B when Plan A doesn't seem to be working? To me, on-court coaching is like getting a cyborg forearm implanted or something - it's adding an artificial external assist to a game that should be resolved by a player's innate forces. |
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Posted by Euphemism |
08/04/2011 at 01:28 PM |
Oh, and about the shot clock... Chair umps need to use their independent judgment. When it's 120 degrees in Australia, or when a rally goes 30 corner-to-corner shots, give the guys a few extra seconds - we'd rather see play delayed a tad than have the quality go down because the guys are still out of breath. And give extra time after exciting points, too - if the crowd's still cheering and clapping, let them - that's what makes seeing tennis live so fun. |
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Posted by Brooklyn |
08/04/2011 at 01:34 PM |
You cannot have an anti-doping programs that is "more investigative than administrative" due to the most recent WADA code. To quote from WADA's webpage, "the code harmonized anti-doping policies, rules and regulations within sport organizations and among public authorities." Bureaucratization over catching dopers. This changes the mission of an anti-doping program. I don't think the programs have time to sweep doping problems under the carpet. Let's not get into the drama involved in confidentiality.
Whereabouts needs to be dumped. The programs focus is on knowing where an athlete is at a particular time, not catching dopers. A program where the athletes know who is eligible for the testing and lets the players set the hour, so they know when not to answer the door.
There's a process where if a player misses the test, then there has to be an investigation for it to be declared a missed test. A player's allowed two missed tests. All of this information is coordinated between agencies.
What are the costs in money and time to ensure the athlete filed, contract and train testers, travel, test the sample of an athlete who can deduce when you will show up-- if one is collected, to deal with the drama of a missed whereabouts tests and coordinate with agencies? Most likely this process is repeated if the player has a missed test.
Let's not get into topics like TUEs and strict liability.
While standardization and coordination at the international level, provided by the WADA code, is necessary, one has to be realistic about its shifting the focus away from developing an effective program for catching dopers to being a better run bureaucracy.
Since the players are also subject to anti-doping programs in their respective counties, why are we letting those programs off the hook? |
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Posted by Interpol09 |
08/04/2011 at 01:44 PM |
Regarding shrieking/grunting: I don't normally have a problem with it. I'm so used to Sharapova and Azarenka's normal screams and shouts that it's comical when they are silent. I'm also pretty unconcerned when players start grunting at critical or late moments in a match, like Serena has a tendency to do.
However, there is a problem when players grunt, shriek, or make noises well after they've hit the ball and almost while the opponent's preparing to hit it. That's pure gamesmanship there, and players need to be penalized. There's nothing natural about uttering noises several seconds after you've completed a mini-bout of exertion. For an example, see Gulbis in the final, when he made a yelp as the ball was landing on Fish's side of the court.
Also, someone's got to tell Marcel Granollers to shut up. It's the only time I've had to turn off a tennis match. It's like he combines a normal grunt with the sounds a man on his deathbed groaning in pain and the normal zombie utterances all in one, and it lasts a good three to five seconds. |
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Posted by murray fan |
08/04/2011 at 01:51 PM |
and now my suggestion seems out of leftfield, however i risk being sent to dention so here it is.
ballpersons standing here holding umbrella over player's head.
how about just putting a catch on the back of those darn seats
the players sit on and just drop the opened umbrella in it and
give the ballpersons a break.
i understand not leaving it up because it may obstruct fans' view
but a ballboy/girl can run out there and quickly open up an stick
an umbrella that was made to fin inside a slot?
that's my shady suggestion. |
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Posted by murray fan |
08/04/2011 at 01:55 PM |
i understand not leaving umbrella up because it may obstruct view of fans
but a ballboy/girl can run out there and quickly open up one of these
umbrellas and stick the umbrella in a slot made to fit it?
(wow - so many typos. sorry, should have proofed it) |
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Posted by Shripathi Kamath |
08/04/2011 at 02:25 PM |
The anti-doping suggestion is not worth the trouble or the tremendous amount of money that'll have to be poured in. Not to mention the inconvenience it causes players.
Look, Marion Jones doped. Do we even remember who should have won those medals? We might have if doping was legalized and the second place finisher was better than her under the same circumstances.
It takes far too much money to test bicyclists, for example, and which is why we'll never be sure if Armstrong doped. Why the farce?
Doping can be dangerous. So? Making doping legal is not a license to kill yourself although I don't think you should need a license for that either.
Professionals who want to win will be responsible, or they won't be playing, forget winning. They are when they take legal pain-killers, have surgery to replace their hips, have titanium plates put in their broken wrists etc.
All of those are advances in medicine. So is HGH, for example. Something being dangerous is no reason to ban it, it is simply an arbitrary restriction.
This is not professional wrestling where the matches are fixed. Sure, there'll be a Lyle Alzado who'll kill himself, but that is rectified through education. Lot cheaper than it'll take to properly test and clean steroids from the game.
Anti-doping practices are a disservice to those who follow the rules, and a chance for glory to those who do not and can escape detection long enough to win. |
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Posted by Eri |
08/04/2011 at 02:26 PM |
Tennis is a unique sport. No teammates, except during team play. No coaching, at least for men and during slams. The players are some of the best athletes in terms of conditioning in the world. It combines the physical and the mental as no other sport I can think of does.
They play with very little time off. And aside from doping which is to me, is a completely different category regarding fair play, I think we can give them a little slack regarding toweling, shrieking, time allotment and MTO. Especially the MTO.
I'm sure it abused sometimes, but I follow the philosophy that is used in law enforcement regarding domestic violence: Some times false reports are made. The man or woman just wants the other out of the house and no abuse took place but the risk involved in not making the arrest is too high. There has been well documented cases when it appears to be a false claim its not and someone has been seriously hurt or is killed. I think taking a point is a good idea, it would discourage it but I don't think we should be so quick to think everyone is faking it. |
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Posted by nyc |
08/04/2011 at 02:29 PM |
I agree with most of these suggestions above, but feel strongly that coaching in the WTA should be eliminated, not expanded to the ATP and (heaven forbid) majors. To fans, at best it is meaningless, at worst an annoying distraction. Part of tennis has always been figuring things out for yourself (allowing that a certain amount of coaching will always go on from the players' box.)
And enough with toweling off after each point--it's just a delaying tactic and gross for the ball kids. Watch YouTube clips from the late 1960s at the US Open and Wimbledon. There were no chairs--players didn't even get to sit down between sets. They just hung their towels on the slats of the wooden umpire's chair and left their bags on the ground. |
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Posted by ChrisAtlanta |
08/04/2011 at 02:34 PM |
No injury timeouts - in any other sport the player has to leave the field, or the game entirely
Allow coaching - they are miked for TV analysis, which people can hear on their audio feeds in the stands. It's not like they're not getting signals from their Uncle Brad anyway.
Allow grunting - but let the fans talk! The whole time! Players scream and curse in other sports, but you never hear it over the white noise
Allow movement at all times - if Shaq can make a free throw with those inflatable toys waving behind him, Roddick can hit a forehand. That is how college tennis operates, and it's actually a fun sport to attend.
No towels - change your wristbands on changeovers if you're so sweaty. Having 20 to pass out after the match would also improve the fan experience. |
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Posted by wiseowl |
08/04/2011 at 02:46 PM |
I had a great time reading the comments. To me coaching during a match is infantile. At the Open I often sit next to coaches on the back courts and most sit like stone statues with a few making audible comments which frankly have little to do with the course of a tight match. As for the towels years ago there was a fad where players wore little towels on their waistband. To be frank it looked a little girly. Then they began tossing towels in the corner and would pick them up with grit everywhere. Now they toss sweaty towels at ball kids. As for the umbrellas it is ridiculous that young athletes who train in the heat and sun have to be sheltered like delicate plants. Next thing you know we will have fans aimed at them to cool them down as well most likely held by the ballkids as well. |
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Posted by tennis.in.my.blood |
08/04/2011 at 03:28 PM |
This czarina says...
Curb the shrieking, permit towelling off only between games (seems like Borg and others had no problems with their headbands and wristbands), be strict on time limits between points, and no coaching.
Losing points means losing matches and losing matches means losing money and endorsements. Seriously...how long will it take to stop the violators of basic sportsmanship to change their behavior if the ATP and WTA got tough and docked points? I'm sure Azarenka and Sharapova will surgically remove their voice boxes next month if that is what it took! Djokovic will miraculously find that his second bounce was just perfect for a serve and Nadal will discover that he can still serve without symmetry gestalt issues. |
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Posted by Tom in Smalltown |
08/04/2011 at 03:40 PM |
I am neutral on most of these things, but those on which I do have an opinion, that opinion has arisen since watching my son (now 14) play competitive tennis. 1. If all players sweated like my son does, racquets would be flying all over the court due to slick grips and more swings of the racquet in this now heavily baseline game. Keep the towels. 2) My boy plays better when he grunts. It's a modest grunting sound. But some kids shout. There's a difference, so a decibel limit might be OK. 3) On court coaching is nice in the juniors game. It might be a thing out of which the older players should mature. I say no to coaching at the pro level. 4) Let's make it harder to get away with illegal drug use. |
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Posted by Tom in Smalltown |
08/04/2011 at 03:52 PM |
Thank goodness the world's rules aren't made by the "Directors cut", let alone the rules and codes of tennis and other sports.
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Posted by Nugget Rudberg |
08/04/2011 at 04:06 PM |
Burn the towels! |
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Posted by Legoboy |
08/04/2011 at 04:23 PM |
Just an after-thought...
Regarding the Towels, which annoy me...so i'm focused.
How many reports of Mono have gone on....have you seen what those players blow into that towel, and then fling to the ball-kids...SHEESH!
I hope their parents are vocalising their concerns...because that's bloody nasty!
Secondly...maybe rather than banning the towel, or having the kids do it..players could pay for a caddy of sorts, who got rackets, and handled their towel etc...at least they'd get paid..and the volunteers wouldn't have to do it! |
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Posted by alvin |
08/04/2011 at 04:33 PM |
We should only be concerned if players deliberately take too much time, try to distract their opponent, exhibit bad sportsmanship, cheat,(re Henin and the Hand vs Serena) engage unsportsmanlike conduct,do drugs.The other individual idiosyncracies which players have developed into ritual, should be allowed them, as long as it does not give them an added advantage over their opponent. Oh, definitely no coaching. Let the players play. Each of us in our private and professional lives engage our own idiosyncracies, and wouldn't and don't abandon them even when we are made aware of them. Let the players play. Sit back and enjoy or watch. We're too judgemental of and in things we don't completely grasp. In all sports there are things players need, or do to reenforce their performance. as long as it does not violate the rules of good sportsmanship, or devolve into bad behavior, we on the sideline should just, take it in stride. Peace. |
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Posted by Just a Lurker |
08/04/2011 at 04:57 PM |
Steve, surprised how civil the tone has been in the comments so far. Is it for real or is it due to your moderator skills???? |
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Posted by John W Minton Jr |
08/04/2011 at 05:08 PM |
Put a stop to the shrieking (watch Maria's matches) which is deliberately distracting, enforce the no coaching rule, and put an end to the stalling by toweling off after every point and/or at critical times in a match. We all know that cheating is rampant in tennis at all levels, money does that for you,and nobody wants to say "no mas."
Thanks for the column.
bomberjohn5 |
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Posted by Cayman Karen |
08/04/2011 at 06:01 PM |
Towelling off: What annoys me is when a player hits an ace and then goes for the towel. My question, how much energy did you just exert to hit that ace. Even worse is the player who just got aced asking for the towel. Ridiculous. And this mostly only happens with the men.
Grunting: If you are going to disband it, ensure that it is for both tours. The men are just as loud and obnoxious sounding as the women.
Coaching: Get rid of it in all aspects of tennis. Davis Cup, Fed Cup and on the women's tour. Do juniors even use on court coaching during their events? It would look really silly if the youngest members of the tennis world don't use coaching but the pros continue to do so.
Doping: Publish the names and the results of everyone, not just a select few. Toughen up on the type of testing that is being done. Let us know what tests are being administered |
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Posted by Tallboyslim |
08/04/2011 at 06:31 PM |
If you enforce the time between points to any degree why should I care if the player enjoys a martini or decides to towel off ? Depends on what you want to do. I have played in weather before where by the end of one set my shorts and t-shirt were dripping in sweat.
No on court coaching. Applies to everyone. |
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Posted by lysander |
08/04/2011 at 06:55 PM |
Could the incessant toweling off be connected to steroid use? Or is it that they are just trying so much harder than players in the 20th century? |
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Posted by skip1515 |
08/04/2011 at 07:47 PM |
Just a lurker wrote: "What happened to the practice of using 'wrist bands' for wiping off the excessive sweat"
Agreed. And then there used to be players who put a hand towel or similar in the waist band of their shorts/skirts to use between points, too. Climate change notwithstanding, it wasn't cooler 30 years ago and they managed to play outstanding tennis without toweling off every point; it's a trending habit.
low4.0player wrote:
"that's where the hinderance rule comes in for the other 99.99% of us players. If the shrieking/grunting doesn't bother you then it's not a hinderance. If it's so bad that it actually impedes your play you do have recourse to warn the opponent that he is hindering. If he keeps it up you have the right to claim a hinderance, and thus a point."
Understood. I know the rules, but regret that the circumstances of increasingly popular playing habits would force me to cite a relatively obscure rule to even the playing field, especially since it's a habit that's tolerated at the professional level. I can't imagine anyone's claiming a hinderance as bringing about anything other than a great argument. I don't see that as an overall positive for the game. |
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Posted by VH1 |
08/04/2011 at 10:21 PM |
On top of all the reasons other posters have given to be against on-court coaching I can think of another one: it would heavily benefit players that can afford very good coaches making it even harder for newcomers that do not have deep pockets. We could get to the point where top players would have a whole team analyzing the match in real time, give all sort of stats to the coach who would digest the information and report back to the players during the mid-match coaching sessions. |
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Posted by Brooklyn |
08/04/2011 at 10:23 PM |
Throw the burning towels at the shriekers. |
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Posted by low4.0player |
08/04/2011 at 10:38 PM |
Good point skip, and that's one reason why I feel the "powers that be" should curb the worst of the grunters/shriekers. Either way, allow or curb, has a trickle-down effect. Personally, I'm not totally opposed to grunting, but there is a limit.
Tallboyslim, well said. |
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Posted by Namez |
08/05/2011 at 12:43 AM |
1. Maximum 10-bounce limit for serves. I never understood people who got frustrated by Nadal's slow pace of play until I watched Djokovic serving. Enforce the 20-second limit and restrict the number of ball bounces. I know that a maximum ball-bounce rule sounds silly, but having to watch Djokovic bounce the ball 20+ times each serve makes such a rule necessary.
2. Shrieking: This is difficult because to me women's shrieking is just inherently more annoying to the ears than the men's grunting (I'm a woman and I enjoy women's tennis, but the shrieking from Sharapova & Co. is just irritating). I know there are serious male offenders like Marcel Granollers, but by and large the grunting in men's tennis does not seem to be *as* great an issue as it is in women's tennis. For me, Granollers is the only player on the men's side that the umpire could have a word with before the match, whereas there are more than a handful of players in the WTA who need to be asked to shut it down a little. I don't see the need to set a decibel limit, but if a reasonable official could tag the worst offenders and make a point of warning them before the match (and even during if the problem persists), that would a step in the right direction. And I don't to hear the excuse of "This is how they play, they don't know any other way"---past experience shows that to be a load of baloney.
3. The toweling-down issue, I'm fine with it as long as the players stay within the 20-second limit. Whatever they do inside the 20 seconds is up to them. The vast majority of professional tennis players in the ATP and WTA did their share of ball-kid duties as they were growing up, so I don't think it's "inhumane" for the players to ask a ball kid to bring them a towel. They've been the bearer of the towel in their youth as well:) As long as they're not throwing the towel in the ball kid's face, which is just inexcusable...
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Posted by JimmyP |
08/05/2011 at 05:43 AM |
At majors the "calling for the trainer" needs to be stopped or at least penalized (point, game, set, match). Lower tournaments need to prevent losing stars and matches shortened but not the majors. A three set match should be able to complete without a bathroom break; part of preparation and conditioning. A short pause prior to a fifth set might be OK.
Go get your own towel if time permits but be ready to play at the servers pace. If Andy Roddick is serving I doubt you will have time! |
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Posted by ebellster |
08/05/2011 at 07:42 AM |
I love the idea of players having to retrieve their own towels. What ball kid wants to sit there and hang on to a sweat soaked towel for 2 hours? Seeing players toss the a towel back to a ball kid has always kind of grossed me out. |
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Posted by tina (Шампион!) |
08/05/2011 at 10:56 AM |
Like Steve, I don't really notice the shrieking after a while, and I'm always amused that Seles got far more grief for it from her colleagues than these girls today, who are far louder.
Don't really care about the towels.
But coaching gets a big fat NO WAY! If tennis were merely a physical sport, I wouldn't continue to love it after 40+ years of playing/following. To me, being out there on your own and figuring it out for yourself is what elevates this individual sport.
I'm convinced that Wozniacki does herself a disservice by using it so frequently on tour, and then when it's not allowed at slams, she doesn't have the same success. |
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Posted by jodiecate |
08/05/2011 at 11:19 AM |
What would i change?
I think in "Major's" for both men and women to have best of three-set matches for the first 3 rounds, and for 4th round onwards to have best of five-setters. It makes sense for the women, as well as the men, to have a bigger challenge to face in the Slam tournaments. And five-set play requires quite a different mindset/skillset to three-set play and i find it really interesting to see the way the matches change because of it. It would add an aspect we haven't seen before in women's tennis.
I agree about having less frequent towelling, like between games instead of between points with a tightening up of the time rules. While i do think it's a good idea having the players getting the towels themselves, would also like to point out that there are some players whose sweaty towels i wouldn't mind handling at all and i daresay the ballkids feel the same way about their favourites. :)
I agree with the suggestion of having the players boxes - and especially their coaches, situated away from where the players can see them thus eliminating any coaching opportunities.
I like Sherlock's suggestion of managing the MTO's by allowing each player one time-out per every couple of sets or so. Can take it whenever you choose, for *whatever* reason but only before your own service game.
Yes, and testing for doping both frequently and transparently.
Thanks for caring!!
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Posted by jodiecate |
08/05/2011 at 11:29 AM |
Might just add that i'm not into the "no-ad" tennis. Just feels weird and incomplete.
Re: grunting/shrieking - doesn't bother me a whole lot - but above a certain level, that would interfere with the opponent's chances of a fair match, should not be allowed. |
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Posted by Frank |
08/05/2011 at 04:06 PM |
Coaching should be allowed! It's in every other sport I can quickly think of. Have the player's chairs on SEPARATE SIDES of the court (like boxing) and a coaching chair but do not allow any more time between change overs. Tennis is similar to boxing anyway, and it would add to the fan experience.
Grunting..... decible meter in the umpire's chair and warning system as it is otherwise: warning, point, game, set, match.
Time between points.... umpire monitored..... same penalty system as everything else.
No-ad... absolutely. Keep the doubles matches shorter, aids in scheduling (with so many players playing singles and doubles)....
I'm available for further consultation.;-)
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Posted by tina (Шампион!) |
08/05/2011 at 04:22 PM |
I've heard the theory that coaching would somehow enhance the viewer/fan experience. I'll never buy that! I want to know the players have brains- for me that's the whole appeal, watching someone figure out an opponent and apply tactics to get the win. To know a player is being fed ideas from a coach really irks me - and whatever ideas they might be, I don't wanna know. That's what training and practice matches are for. The fact that it exists in other sports - so what? We're not talking about other sports. |
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Posted by low4.0player |
08/05/2011 at 05:10 PM |
Frank, you radical.
I agree w/ tina about the coaching. So what?
(Also posted because I wanted us to reach 100.) |
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Posted by Ryan |
08/05/2011 at 07:53 PM |
They need to figure out how to speed up the game. Its beginning to look like baseball. Players like Nadal take foever between points and it just gets ridiculous If they started handing out point penalties things would change quick. |
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